Africasgateway.com
Other => Politics => Topic started by: A pimp named Sarkozy on August 27, 2009, 09:56:55 AM
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http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw...5720&sn=Detail
Its a long read.Only copy and pasted some of the paragrapghs
"There are a number of problems with affirmative action, as we know it:
Firstly, most affirmative action and BEE measures affect only the top 15 per cent of the income pyramid and have little or no impact on the condition of the bottom 85 per cent of our society. It is like playing musical chairs in an airliner - while the vast majority of the population watches helplessly from the ground. The manner in which affirmative action has been applied means that a small minority of the black population has benefited quite significantly, while the great majority has been left behind. This has substantially increased inequality within the black section of our population.
Secondly, in implementing affirmative action those involved have too often overlooked the requirement that beneficiaries should be suitably qualified. The Fair Employment Act of 1998 states that
"Affirmative action measures are measures designed to ensure that suitably qualified people from designated groups have equal employment opportunities and are equitably represented in all occupational categories and levels in the workforce of a designated employer.
No thinking person can reasonably quarrel with this formulation.
The problem is that there are at the moment simply not enough suitably qualified black South Africans to fill their proportional share of all the highly skilled technical and managerial posts in the private and public sectors.
Despite progress, black South Africans in 2009 still accounted for only 17% of the candidates who pa**ed the chartered accountants final exam. In 2008 only 23% of the engineers registered with the Engineering Council of SA were black.
The reality is that the wholesale appointment of people who are not suitably qualified has been a major factor in dysfunctional service delivery by the state - particularly at the municipal level. Unbalanced affirmative action has undermined the right of millions of ordinary South Africans to equal enjoyment of many of the basic rights in the constitution - including most notably
the right to life and security;
the right to health care, food, water and social security; and
the right to education.
By so-doing unbalanced affirmative action has actually undermined the right to equality.
Another problem is that the guiding principle behind the implementation of affirmative action has too often been the ideology of demographic representivity. The Constitution requires demographic representivity only in the public service and the judiciary. It stipulates that "public administration should be broadly representative of the South African people" - but it goes on to require that employment and personnel management practices should also be based "on ability, objectivity and fairness" and on "good human resource management and career-development practices."
In practice, the application of representivity in public administration has often ignored the countervailing requirements for ability, objectivity, fairness and good human resource management. The precipitate departure of 120 000 trained and experienced whites from the civil service has undoubtedly been a major element in the marked deterioration in the provision of public services, especially at the municipal level.
Because of its ideological commitment to demographic representivity the government would rather leave posts vacant than fill them with qualified whites. Its alleged refusal to appoint qualified whites to key vacant posts in the police's forensics units have been a major factor in the poor performance of those units - to the detriment of South Africa's ability to fight crime.
The Constitution does not require the application of demographic representivity in the private sector and in civil society - provided that nobody discriminates unfairly against anyone else on any of a number of grounds, including race, gender, religion or language. In particular, demographic representivity cannot and should not be applied in organisations that have a cultural or religious nature.
It makes no sense to require that 80% the staff of Afrikaans newspapers should be non-Afrikaans-speaking black South Africans.
How can an organisation like the Afrikaans Christelike Vroue Vereniging - be representative of the demography of the country as a whole? Nevertheless, the ACVV does excellent work - much of it to the benefit of disadvantaged black communities.
Finally, the manner in which affirmative action is being applied too often constitutes unfair discrimination - and therefore adds to the sum total of inequality in society.
The simple reality is that income and education levels in South Africa no longer coincide exactly with race - particularly in the top 15% -20% of income earners. For example, there are almost two million black, coloured and Indian South Africans who have higher education qualifications than almost three million whites. Another five million have the same education qualifications as these whites. There are more than 2 million black, coloured and Indian South Africans who earn more than 1.6 million whites.
It is accordingly impossible to implement the remedial measures envisaged in Section 9.2 without taking into account the actual circumstances of the individuals involved - particularly when it comes to affirmative action appointments or promotions. Clearly, if a black, coloured or Indian candidate from the privileged education and income group is "advanced" because of his or her race over a white South African from a less privileged education and income group, the result will not "promote the achievement of equality" but will increase inequality in society. It is difficult to see how such discrimination could possibly be regarded as "fair" in terms of Section 9(5) of the Constitution and would accordingly be in contravention of the prohibition against unfair discrimination.
Balanced affirmative action involving the appointment of suitably qualified people from disadvantaged groups can and must play a constructive role in promoting equality - particularly in addressing residual conscious and unconscious discrimination. However, experience has shown that affirmative has not been effective in promoting the kind of equality required by the Constitution.
If the state genuinely wishes to promote equality - as envisaged in Section 9 (2) - it should concentrate on measures that will provide all our citizens with much greater access to ‘the full enjoyment of all rights and freedoms' - and in particular to the right to decent basic education, security, housing and health services.
The roots of inequality lie in poor education, poor services and unacceptably high unemployment.
We shall not be able to advance the achievement of equality until we can provide all South Africans with decent education.
Of the 1.67 million children who entered the school system in 1995 only 34% made it to matric in 2007.
Of these 1.67 million children only 22% pa**ed matric and only 5.2% did so with the exemption required for university.
Finally, only 1.5% pa**ed maths at the higher grade - most of whom were Whites and Asians.
How - under these circumstances - are we supposed to promote equality and produce the black candidates that we need to take up leadership positions throughout society and the economy?
How will we be able to ensure real equality before the law and equal protection and benefit of the law in circumstances where a quarter of a million people have been murdered since 1994 and where the great majority of the population simply does not have access to the courts?
Real equality can best be promoted by the provision of decent social, municipal and medical services. Government has made progress in this regard by building more than 3 million houses since 1994. More than 13 million South Africans now receive children's and old-age allowances. However, such transfers do not promote equality - they simply help to provide minimal subsistence for those involved.
Finally, the right to equality of almost a third of our population is fatally undermined by the fact that they are unemployed. The consequences of unemployment are devastating for the people concerned and for our whole society. Unemployment is at the root of the deep poverty in which half of our population subsists; it is inevitably interwoven with unacceptable crime levels; and it is one of the main causes of the persistent inequality which negates one of the foundational values of our Constitution.
The measures on which the state should concentrate in its efforts to promote equality in terms of Section 9 (2) of the Constitution should not primarily centre on the present type of affirmative action and BEE - although these have a role to play. They should instead be focussed on uplifting the 50% of our population that is most disadvantaged through the provision of decent and effective education; through the delivery of effective health, municipal and social services - and above all through the creation of jobs.
We should set a national goal to substantially decrease our GINI coefficient - and the inequality in our society - by 2020."
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(http://bmia.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/powell-obama.jpg)
dont do it colin
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*died a slow death in the midst of the new jack post*
lmao@ colin :D new jack uyahlanya!!!
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Affirmative action isnt based on being rich or being from the suburbs. Its based on race. Why should a a rich, black or Hispanic person from the suburb be given precedence over a white or Asian person of the same economical status?
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***Waits for people to come in and totally disregard the facts of the article and turn it into a racist issue***
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I maybe simplistic in my view,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
Ha ha...
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affirmative action does work, but it's slow, in my view.
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way?
That's a nice bit of casual racism for a tuesday morning. Congratulations.
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I was just agreeing with him being a simpleton.
YOu should know by now how I feel about all this bullshit, which is why I didn't even bother with a proper reply.
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Affirmative action isnt based on being rich or being from the suburbs. Its based on race. Why should a a rich, black or Hispanic person from the suburb be given precedence over a white or Asian person of the same economical status?
maybe the black person has more family or other kinds of dependent a**ociates who are living under poverty.
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way
You said it.. couldn't have said it better myself. :D
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way?
That's a nice bit of casual racism for a tuesday morning. Congratulations.
All i'm sayin is that, Through countless conversations,arguments and articles with/by white poeple on this matter,I always get the same argument "REVERSE DISCRIMINATION" they dont ever try to see the other side of the coin and interprete affirmitive action for what its supposed to achieve. And understandably so,it works against them after all...
Label me a casual racist or simpleton if you will...but all i'm sayin is that i'm yet to meet a white person willing to consider affirmative action as neccessity rather than a tool to discriminate against them...
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way?
That's a nice bit of casual racism for a tuesday morning. Congratulations.
All i'm sayin is that, Through countless conversations,arguments and articles with/by white poeple on this matter,I always get the same argument "REVERSE DISCRIMINATION" they dont ever try to see the other side of the coin and interprete affirmitive action for what its supposed to achieve. And understandably so,it works against them after all...
Label me a casual racist or simpleton if you will...but all i'm sayin is that i'm yet to meet a white person willing to consider affirmative action as neccessity rather than a tool to discriminate against them...
i agree with this.
a lot of the arguments that come from 'the other side' alway make the a**umption that all lower middle cla** (let's face it) black people live like Tokyo Sexwale, and that they are hogging the wealth from the poor, despite being only as politically involved as their ballots will allow them to be. black people are poor and the black lower middle cla** is not severed from this ma** of poor black people. the money eventually gets there. i've seen it. but it's too slow, that's the problem with it, i think.
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way
You said it.. couldn't have said it better myself. :D
Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
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[/quote]
Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
[/quote]
you prefer it in your a**??
what?? you don't like sharing huh?
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way
You said it.. couldn't have said it better myself. :D
Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
pretty sure she wasn't getting at you here, dun.
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Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
[/quote]
you prefer it in your a**??
what?? you don't like sharing huh?
[/quote]
DAMN!!! Easy fellas :o :D
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way
You said it.. couldn't have said it better myself. :D
Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
pretty sure she wasn't getting at you here, dun.
Misdirected missile...Apologies,you can put it back in.lol
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Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
you prefer it in your a**??
what?? you don't like sharing huh?
[/quote]
DAMN!!! Easy fellas :o :D
[/quote]
te he he :D :o
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way
You said it.. couldn't have said it better myself. :D
Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
pretty sure she wasn't getting at you here, dun.
Thanks Panic.. coz I was so not getting at him .. but Touareg clearly likes Dpleezy's dick enough to think that I am his competition!!!
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way
You said it.. couldn't have said it better myself. :D
Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
pretty sure she wasn't getting at you here, dun.
Thanks Panic.. coz I was so not getting at him .. but Touareg clearly likes Dpleezy's dick enough to think that I am his competition!!!
He he...ok ok i've already apologised enough...
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I don't find that AA works against me in any way because I understand that decisions have to be taken for the greater good of society. This doesn't just relate to AA, it relates to almost every decision government makes.
The success or failure of AA is down to how it is implemented. If it can be demonstrated that AA is effective way to redress the inequality of Apartheid then I'm all for it. If it is not an effective way, then it's bullshit. I haven't researched it enough to have an informed opinion, but I'm generally in favour of the concept of AA.
If you support AA no matter how it is implemented, without debating its merits, simply because you are black, or you are against it because you are white, you are indeed a simpleton.
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I don't find that AA works against me in any way because I understand that decisions have to be taken for the greater good of society. This doesn't just relate to AA, it relates to almost every decision government makes.
The success or failure of AA is down to how it is implemented. If it can be demonstrated that AA is effective way to redress the inequality of Apartheid then I'm all for it. If it is not an effective way, then it's bullshit. I haven't researched it enough to have an informed opinion, but I'm generally in favour of the concept of AA.
If you support AA no matter how it is implemented, without debating its merits, simply because you are black, or you are against it because you are white, you are indeed a simpleton.
okay.
i can't front on this. clear and solid. cosign.
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way
You said it.. couldn't have said it better myself. :D
Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
pretty sure she wasn't getting at you here, dun.
Thanks Panic.. coz I was so not getting at him .. but Touareg clearly likes Dpleezy's dick enough to think that I am his competition!!!
He he...ok ok i've already apologised enough...
:D :D :D this smells ether
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I may be a simpleton,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
Yep
So white people are not able to think beyond the colour of their skin in a logical, fair and balanced way
You said it.. couldn't have said it better myself. :D
Take Damian's dick out of your mouth before you speak to me!
pretty sure she wasn't getting at you here, dun.
Thanks Panic.. coz I was so not getting at him .. but Touareg clearly likes Dpleezy's dick enough to think that I am his competition!!!
He he...ok ok i've already apologised enough...
:D :D :D this smells ether
At the Risk of sounding like a dick sucker .. Apology accepted ;)
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At the Risk of sounding like a dick sucker .. Apology accepted ;)
[/quote]
Words on your avatar sums up everything.....
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where I work, there is no AA policy at all. only about 4 black people in a staff count of about 40 in SA in 2009.
There are a lot of workplaces like that around here presumably because there are not enough black people who study to be environmentalists and want to speand all their time in a swamp in the middle of nowhere.
and so how would the pro AA and anti AA and the fence sitters suppose this be handled coz apprently its not for lack of trying to find blacks to come work in the sector :-\
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At the Risk of sounding like a dick sucker .. Apology accepted ;)
Words on your avatar sums up everything.....
[/quote]
Right back at ya
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I don't find that AA works against me in any way because I understand that decisions have to be taken for the greater good of society. This doesn't just relate to AA, it relates to almost every decision government makes.
The success or failure of AA is down to how it is implemented. If it can be demonstrated that AA is effective way to redress the inequality of Apartheid then I'm all for it. If it is not an effective way, then it's bullshit. I haven't researched it enough to have an informed opinion, but I'm generally in favour of the concept of AA.
If you support AA no matter how it is implemented, without debating its merits, simply because you are black, or you are against it because you are white, you are indeed a simpleton.
Good point,& I cosign what you sayin,It is an unfortunate reality however that in this country of ours whenever an issue arises that will have racial implecations(like AA for example) we tend to follow blindly without looking at merits,This is true of both blacks and whites. We always seem to have an "us against them" attitude which spoils the oppotunity for fair and open debate...Simpletons these South Africans!
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Weren't you the one who said whites can't comment on it because of their race?
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The idea of affirmative action may or may not be right, I don't know, but no one can disagree with this:
Firstly, most affirmative action and BEE measures affect only the top 15 per cent of the income pyramid and have little or no impact on the condition of the bottom 85 per cent of our society.
Affirmative action as it is done now by the ANC is only to help enrich a few friends of the party. No one can claim that affirmative action/BEE helps the majority of poor people, it doesn't. It doesn't even help poor people, it helps middle or upper cla** black people get richer. South Africa's Gini coefficient, i.e. the measure of economic inequality, is still increasing, even with BEE/affirmative action, that means inequality is still increasing. The government should spend more money providing clean water, cheap electricity, good hospitals that are well stocked with equipment and medicine, good quality free education, tertiary education scholarships, etc. rather than spenf=ding all the tax payers money to enrich themselves and a few friends. The implementation of BEE/affirmative action = FAIL.
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Weren't you the one who said whites can't comment on it because of their race?
I said the ones i've conversed and argued with,whose articles i've read, just refuse to be fair and balanced in their view of AA. They tend to cling on to the idea that it is a mechanism by the current government to discriminate against them...
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I maybe simplistic in my view,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
No, this is what you said. It is completely different to what you are saying now.
Did you think I don't know how to go back to the first page?
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I maybe simplistic in my view,but i dont think any white person can have a logical, fair and balanced view on affirmitive action. To do so would be fighting against their own caurse...
No, this is what you said. It is completely different to what you are saying now.
Did you think I don't know how to go back to the first page?
Wow arent we clever...now find my next post that elaborates...
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This chick at work, who I have been sharing an office with for the past 5 months, asked me where I grew up, cos I speak really good English.
I don't know how to feel about this right now.
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This chick at work, who I have been sharing an office with for the past 5 months, asked me where I grew up, cos I speak really good English.
I don't know how to feel about this right now.
Happens to me all the time
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This chick at work, who I have been sharing an office with for the past 5 months, asked me where I grew up, cos I speak really good English.
I don't know how to feel about this right now.
Happens to me all the time
:D
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This forum is has like 80 to 90% white members in it check how some whites really feel about BEE, read the De Clerk article,it goes 44 pages deep.SMH @ you agians replying 4 months later.
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=182405