Africasgateway.com
Other => Politics => Topic started by: machiavella on February 01, 2005, 03:11:58 PM
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i don't know whose heard anyway Africa is to get a permanent UN seat and the contest was/is between SA and Nigeria ,and the nigerians say that we are not a true reflection of africa because we are essentially not black in terms of our society values.At first I was like wtf? but when i calmed down I realised that they might have a point.
South african culture is more eurocentric than afrocentric, with all the xenophobia and stuff going on,our african brothers are not blind to this.
I'm still uneasy about it ,not sure but its something to think about...how african is south africa?
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South african culture is more eurocentric than afrocentric, with all the xenophobia and stuff going on,our african brothers are not blind to this.
/quote]
i hear u girl
to us being blak is being white while we hate whites being blak
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Yeah, fa sho, we are definitely very eurocentric!!! I dont agree with us not being a true reflection of africa tho, because what really defines being an african??? Its nothing thats tangible, and whilst many ppl shy away from their 'africanness' or 'blackness' or whatever a lot of us actually embrace it. Society and cultures are continuously evolving and i think its about finding sum sort of balance..Living in a cosmopolitan environment but still adhering to your roots as an African. As for the whole UN thing tho, i think SA and NIGERIA are both equally capable of doing the job. I dont really mind who gets the seat, as long as they represent for everyone...we are afterall all working for a common goal right???
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I'm still uneasy about it ,not sure but its something to think about...how african is south africa?
...this question always leads down the " define what african is " route
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so b4 we go there lets leave it
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Speakin from a non-south african, african point of view, i sorta feel sa peeps got a lotta hostility towards other nations. it's also really huge in different media, e.g. tv, radio, etc..
BUT THEN AGAIN...
take lesotho for example. chinese peeps are infesting our country like crap, and pple here got hostility towards them too.
AND...
it's not ALL the ma**es, but it really does count when a group of pple make nasty comments abt. others who aint belonging to they country, race or otherwise..
That's why i really dig hip-hop; it goes beyond boundaries. When Eminem first came out, i never did think for a moment about his skin colour. When i heard Freddy Dilemma, the flow hit me, and not the accent. Hip-hop transcends just the music, it's a critical realiztion of self. I strongly believe it's here for every1 to eventually see the light, thru its spectacles.
What else...YEAH! Don't know if i make sense, bt dat is how i see it...ONE!
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nah people look at soweto we lives side to side withour friends. xeno is only in town coz those people NOT ALL are f***in up our country and they are f***in up our ecomony. they takin there money back home aint investin in anything feasable for us all.
another peice of info SA cud get a seat in the Un security counsel in the next ten years
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the lesotho shit is tru
nothin but india and chiness f***s up in there
but that could coz no one is doin shit to open a shop n shit
coz its a "white thing"
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SOUTH AFRICA is a direction and not a country, what else can one expect from a direction with its people that are lacking direction.
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i like the south africa as a direction idea...i think we are a reflection of change, we are african and european influenced because of our history...we are always changing and finding interesting ways of making the best of our situation ,hopefully we are learning from our past and along the way we'll teach the world even africa a thing or two....
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South african culture is more eurocentric than afrocentric, with all the xenophobia and stuff going on,our african brothers are not blind to this.
what the hell does the xenophobia have to do with Eurocentricity?
i've lived in Europe for more than the 1st half of my life n can hardly remember bumpin into single Xenophobic incident...
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what plan has the nigerian government done to uplift africa, which they claim we are not a true reflection of?
Nepad might not be well desired by the ma**es but its an effort from south africa to uplift africa, for a country that has just got its infant democracy 10 years back we seem to have done alot for africa.
Sa has opened trade in the congo river bettering their economy, what of the burundi peace negotiations, in fact
How many South Africans do we in Nigeria selling drugs? Running Child Prostitution networks?
a true reflection of africa? i think not what i think though is that the whole race card they are tring to plya is a bluff.
but anyway these are just my thoughts here is a much more detailed look on the matter
Together, South Africa and Nigeria are the Big Two of the continent, home to 160 million of sub-Saharan Africa's 600 million people. They are the most populous, and most developed nations - clearly the superpowers of the continent. Their successes or failures will likely determine the future of the entire region.
With that power comes responsibility. Because they have more sophisticated systems relative to their neighbors, other African countries can learn from their successes. Democracy and economic reform must work in South Africa and Nigeria so that they can in turn serve as regional models and problem solvers. And they must set the tone for diplomacy, building relationships both between African nations and with governments around the world.
Recent developments suggest that the two countries, rivals for years, are now on the right track.
Nigeria's successive dictators disdained South African apartheid and were highly critical of the racist, Afrikaner regime - even though they were no saints themselves on the human-rights front. When majority rule returned to South Africa, the tables turned. Then-President Nelson Mandela became a vocal, prominent opponent of Nigeria's military dictator at the time, Gen. Sani Abacha.
Now that both countries are making the transition to democracy, they are beginning to understand their own strategic importance. Recently, the two governments adopted cooperative agreements on trade, taxes, education, mining and energy. In agriculture, they agreed to collaborate on research and training, production, technology, food security and market access.
South African businesses now top the list of foreign firms examining investment in Nigeria. A South African cable television network, widely viewed in Nigeria, last year became the first wholly foreign company to be quoted on the small but growing Nigerian Stock Exchange. South Africa's electric company, Eskom, is negotiating with Nigeria's electric utility to help repair and operate Nigeria's crumbling national grid.
Later this month, South African Airways will start operating a joint flight with Nigeria Airways on the busy and lucrative Lagos-New York route.
The two nations are also crucial to regional peace-keeping. Nigeria deserves credit for sending troops to Sierra Leone, Liberia and the Ivory Coast. Their efforts have been praised and supported by both the Clinton administration and the United Nations.
South African President Thabo Mbeki was the star of last month's 150-nation U.N. Millennium Summit, largely because he deftly articulated Africa's issues and urged fellow Africans to develop a sort of Marshall Plan for the continent. The British-educated economist is a soft-spoken but powerful advocate for what he calls the "African Renaissance."
Mbeki even managed take the focus off his controversial views on HIV and AIDS. Those views attracted media attention over the last six months after he raised questions about whether HIV infection is the cause of the disease.
While there are promising signs from South Africa and Nigeria, the Big Two and regional organizations must do more to calm Africa's trouble spots. During the summit, African diplomats agreed that Zimbabwe and the war-ravaged Congo affect regional development. Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe vowed to continue expropriating white-owned farms (violently, if necessary), going against his own government's rule of law. He defiantly rejected a U.N. compromise aimed at ending the crisis.
Yet other African presidents are timid about publicly criticizing Mugabe. When our journalists' group asked Mozambican President Joaquim Chissano about the Zimbabwean farm crisis, he replied, "Mugabe is no Idi Amin." Nor would Nigerian officials criticize Mugabe openly. U.S. diplomats told us they believe leaders are trying to work with Mugabe behind the scenes.
Still, African leaders should put more pressure on him. And they should not have been shy about taking even Mbeki to task - especially when he was so clearly wrong about AIDS. As U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has often said, Africans must own up to their mistakes. They must have the fortitude and political will to candidly confront peers who jeopardize regional progress.
It is especially important for Nigeria and South Africa to help resolve land-distribution issues. Zimbabwe's crisis could easily spill into Kenya and South Africa; whites still own the best farmland in those countries as well. Already Zimbabwe's conflict has contributed to devaluation of South Africa's currency. And U.S. officials predict that the disruption of production on Zimbabwean farms could lead to critical food shortages in coming months. Clearly, civil conflict and political upheaval in one nation can spill across borders to affect neighboring countries.
Africa's Big Two are uniquely positioned to analyze the continent's major problems and provide the leadership to solve them.
courtesy of http://www.startribune.com/stories/1654/17293.html
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SA not African enough?! that's some bullshit right there.
Maybe we would be more 'African' if we introduced Islamic Sharia law in SA and start stoning people to death for adultery?
Nigeria please!
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Speakin from a non-south african, african point of view, i sorta feel sa peeps got a lotta hostility towards other nations. it's also really huge in different media, e.g. tv, radio, etc..
BUT THEN AGAIN...
take lesotho for example. chinese peeps are infesting our country like crap, and pple here got hostility towards them too.
AND...
it's not ALL the ma**es, but it really does count when a group of pple make nasty comments abt. others who aint belonging to they country, race or otherwise..
Its the same all over the world. Just some places worse than others.
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congratulations to south africa, i beleive that @ this point in time it is capable doin the position it has been given jusice. i do think however that nigeria would have been equally capable of holdin shit down had it gotten the job. i do think that in order to represent a nation, forgive me to represent an african nation u need to know, exept and embrace its people. i am a not of this country but i am of this nation, and i find that discrimination of south africans against people like myself is becomin extremly bad. As africans we have forgotten where we come from, we are too involved in tryin to look like sumthin outta a cosmopolitan mag that we no longer want to wear our head wraps and walk proudly in our tribal wear. we have forgotten what togetherness means because even after we where divided then liberated we made no attempts to try and re-unite ourselves. yes nigerianz have been known for drug traffickin, child prostitution but lets not forget that nigeria as a nation did not do this and not every single nigerian is respoinsible for this. lets stop discriminating against people that cum from diffrent nations we do not know what has brought them to our countries and we do not know what will happen to them if we send them back. once again congrates to S.A for gettin this position now lets see how it represents AFRICA as a whole..........
one luv
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Its actually quite a shocker that xenophobia is still rampant in S.A. I would have thought that by now peeps would sumhow understand that discrimination f any sort is phucked up, especially discrimination against our own. As for the whole nigerians are drug dealers debate, well thats just a stereotypical view, just like saying black people are lazy, and are thieves, americans are ignorant etc etc...I think ppl just need to be open minded enuff to learn from each other, and try find sum middle ground where you can relate to others!!!
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South Africa is actually an accelarated glimpse of where many other African countries are headed, the so called 'eurocentric' trend is being followed by other southern african countries with SA taking the cake for having shed much of it's traditional (not cultural) ethos in favour for something that readily fits more into the fabric of globalization.
Although sometimes I do think, by observation, that South Africans seem to think that they somehow are an authority on colonial suffering and seem to have little want to take the time out to understand other countries pan-african cultural view points, and sometimes are just downright arrogant- I do not think you can consider South Africa as not being african enough.
If anything they are a good example (neo-culturally) of what most of Africa is heading for. 'Eurocentricity' is not a result of a peoples losing it's socio-cultural and traditional values by choice but a result of economic growth, pure and simple. If I'm wrong, you could argue that the 'Wiggernization' of the western youth is sum clandestine AU/NCAA operation designed to turn whites into blacks instead of it's real cause which is simply good marketing by large music corporations and media networks.
With no other country having been in the circumstantial postition most of SA finds itself after the end of apartheid, it's not surprising to see that they have embraced the media as much as they did given the strong ties it has with Britain, America and the likes(Did u know that Drum magazine is a CIA initiated project?).
The disputes over the Security seat must stem from more solid debates such as geographic location and geopolitical prowess, the latter which in Africa Nigeria posseses more of. Xenophobia and racsism are bound to rear their ugly heads whereever a significant human population exists, that is understandable- what should be being talked about is Mbeki's efforts as a PAN-AFRICANIST to further gain meaning into why there is so much hostility towards SA about the issue in Norther,east and west Africa and vice versa.
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i agree with u on ur article, but do u not think that as a people or betta still as individuals it is up to us to celebrate our cultures and heritage. i do not think that euro-centricity comes about as a result of economic growth, why do u have to dress, walk and talk like americans just because ur counrty is headin in that direction! when we talk about africa why should we not talk about it with pride nowin that even though this name was given to us by our oppressors our ancestors fought to liberate us so that we could walk tall, i mean come on people like steve biko and thambo where preachin black pride and the way i understand it is pride of whom u r, pride of being xhosa, tswana, etc, and that is why i respect artists who are able to incoporate there cultures into there music( tandiswa, konfab) they say to know where u are goin u must always remember where u come from, im not sayin that peeps should be dressin traditionaly all the time, im sayin that while lookin like beyonce u can still work the shwe-shwez.
one love
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This has little to do with not being African enough. The fact is that there is growing resentment of South Africa in many African countries. This is mostly because we have emerged as arguably the most influential country in Africa barely 10 years after freedom. The bigger &mmore complicated issue is that we are seen as the new imperialists in some parts of Africa. This comes from the fact that many SA firms (e.g. MTN, Shoprite, Vodacom, Eskom, Standard bank, etc) are moving into many African countries and doing very well.
The fact is that many Africans rightly see us as Xenophobic. We call them Amakwekwere, blame them for taking our jobs, women, etc. Of course not every South African is xenophobic but some incidents just show that xenophobia is a big problem with us. A few years back 7 Africans died when they were hurled off a moving train by South Africans who were on their way back from protesting about unemployment.
Why did many African delegates not vote for us during the 2006 & 2010 world cup bids. Many say it is a sign of the growing resentment that Africans have about us.
The Mail & guardian has recently reported that many African politicians in the African Union want to move the NEPAD secretariat to Ethiopia.
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Given, but check the articale again and notice I said SA is shedding it's traditional not cultural tendencies, I fully agree that as Africans we need to embrace our African values and cultural heritage but doing so without adapting them to the world in which we live today is not just backward but impossible.
'Eurocentricity' or 'westernization' is an unstoppable process attributed to economic growth because the capitalit instuttion you deal with ARE FROM EUROPE AND THE WEST IN GENERAL. Media, clothing, food every single object of any market value will have with it a attached a western cultural attribute because of the simple fact that they RUN SHIT.
Where we come from and what we should remember is the task of individual African governments and their cultural heritage departements as much as it is a indvidual (personal) task, what we must realize is that most other cultures have a much better DOCUMENTED and WRITTEN rather than ORAL history such as we have in Africa.
Artists incorporate african ethnic features, all good and well but I tell you that the problem of African youth embracing american or western culture rather than their own will only dissapear when Africa gets its shit 2gether and African youth have African astronauts and scientists, and big company CEO's to look up to instead of only revolutionaries, sportsmen/women and musicians.
In that same breadth it is understandable that countries with lesser economic developement resent some of SA's aspects of society and see it as un-african rather than humans expressing emotion or business accumen.
South African who have trouble grasping why there is hostility towards them should never forget that through all of SA tromendous achievemnets in the past 10 and contributions it has made, lumping the rest of Africa together as I have seen people doing on this post and off it, and thinking a central administartion point for all of Africas problems is feasible is a grave mistake.
Yes, SA does have the most favorable economic and possibly (only possibly) political enviroment but it still is SOUTH africa, and there the west african the east africans, the hebrews and the Arabs to think of. Lest we forget our own continents diversity, we are all in this together because of the label the west has given us. Let's not make the same mistake when it comes to governing ourselves.
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Phil. Agree with your most of your points.
But it is too simplistic to say being eurocentric has to do with just economic growth. Think of China, currently one of the fastest growing economies in the world, but far from being Euro centric. The Chinese have their own way of doing business – foreigners have to adapt, the Chinese value their languages, culture 7 way of life. Off course like any other country it cant run away from some effects of globalization. Nonetheless, it is definitely not Eurocentric. The same can be said of Japan, India, United Arab Emirates.
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Merchant, mebbe I have to clarify my statements that 'eurocentricity' is the combined result of economic growth and the fact that our cultures don't have shit to show us or to instill in us youth through the most important things such as primary and secondary education and local media because the intitutions are not set up.
You cannot compare countries such as China and Japan or UAE OR in fact India because of their vastly different histories to that of Africa and African countries. And to say that China and Japan are not westernized in their cultural or business aspects is I think a bit ignorant. Having different labour, business and contract laws does not signify that u have 'culturalized' your business ethics, because at the end of the day your are dealing in USD and Euros. And if you would take a good look at youth culture in China and India and virtually any country on earth it's the same thing happening everywhere. Kids dressin, talkin(even in their own languages) and acting like MTV.
And with China in particular, I'm sure you've seen them in SA and tell me do u think they respect SA cultural and business ettiquete? HELL NO!
So of course you can expect that at their home country.
Our problem lies in the fact that we don't have things in any sort of organized fashion, a couple of BEE movements here and there but African businessess are still primarily run wether through funding or business ties or plain management by WESTERN INSTITUTIONS based in Europe and America.
And that's including all those companies you just mentioned.