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Communism Way Forward

Poll

Communusim, way forward?

yes
4 (50%)
no
4 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Voting closed: June 16, 2006, 10:19:09 AM

solarman

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Without a doubt, the above mentioned topic is the saviour of the azanian nation.

Although hard and drastic, some say extreme, it can be managed through mobilzation, consciousness and righteouness of free will amongsts the people of the land. The sooner we capitalise internally within native boundaries to the maximum on our resourcres, instead of ploughing them and exporting to the slave driver, the sooner we shall be able to live from our own work, communally.
Its just another level of our culture of Ubuntu Ngumntu Ngabantu, which has been reversed and manipulated into cheap labour and "Matters of Foreign Affairrs & World Trade Organizatinal issues", what happen to the  simple Barter system of Nubia & Timbuktu?

The very reason Iran & Iraq is to protect their resourses from American eploitation.
Mugabe tried the same strategy, lacked intelligence thus the super world powers sanctioned him!
Look at the might of the Russians,yester year and presently the dormant world political power!The Chinese have closed off major trade links with the west and currently investing in Africa, here is a sign!

As we did with the Eskom sight the 70's, Defiance Campain inthe 50's, natives need to centralise,  close off all exportation of raw minerals and goods until further notice, sabotage the economy Legitimately! But first a plan and strategy of mobilization. Who ever is reading this needs to think clealy before the converse openly about this topic.
Mathintela


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read it and you're talking shit. really you are! shit! shit! f***ing bull shit! i'm not saying that you're not capable of talking sense, but at the moment you're talking shit!

 the barter system was a system of exchange. we can shut our borders to international exploitation but that is not communism. the saviour of the azanian nation as you so put it is not communism. no single form of governance ideology works perfectly. so why should communism work in this regard? i do believe that there should be a more equitable balance in the distribution of income / wealth. are you an ultra-leftist by any chance? figures. what is needed is a socially accountable system that can also sustain itself institutionally and maybe fiscally. communism and free will - the strangest of bed fellows methinks.

how this is to be done - don't ask me, you're the one with the solutions to saving this azanion nation.
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KONFAB

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all well and good to be socialist-minded as individuals but for entire nation to turn communist in this day and age impractical... can't co-exist with capitalism and in this the epoch of globilisation we too dependent on the west nett effect would be a bigger isolated zimbabwe...

the idea of sabotaging trade initiatives with the west is not at all realistic for a continent as indebted to the world's superpowers as appears on paper (of course we know in actuality we owed a whole lot more)... your ideas of "mobilzation, consciousness and righteouness of free will amongsts the people of the land" are noble but do not in themselves represent communism as it were... they represent exactly what you called it: "capitalising internally" -> which is a crucial element of capitalism if you consider the "spider web" economic principles of the most affluent nations, notably the east...

the concept of an african renaissance is aimed at realising the brilliant ideas that you bring up but it is widely acknowledged that the only way to uplift africa is to play the capitalist game the way the big players have always played it i.e. the very things you describe in your post

also... chinese investment in africa don't exemplify communism - quite the contrary expanding their empire perhaps even nurturing ma** of obsequious allies in their cold war with the west... let's not be naive by now we should know no outsiders take genuine selfless interest in uplifting africans the world's achilles heel...

communism is excellent as an ideal but it's been deprecated by the world we live in
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Dpleezy

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communism. hmm,,, not sure about that. the russian people suffered ma**ively under communism. admittedly this was not strictly the fault of communism itself,,, but there will always be people who will take advantage of whatever system is in place. it seems to me that communism requires totalitarianism, and i don't think that's much fun.

I might be wrong about this,,, but as far as I can remember, China still has 'most favoured nation' status with the US (ie. has normal trade relations).

I'm not a huge fan of capitalism in its most extreme forms,,, but some form of capitalism with socialist ideals beats totalitarianism any day.


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socialism, yes.

communism, no.
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Sunshine

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It was the fault of communism that Russia suffered.

Lenin was very clear, that it would take totalitarianism to bring turn the state into a collectivist system. They had no qualms about this.


They did not mind sacrificing a 'few' people and freedoms to overhaul tsarist russia. make no mistake. when they brought about the secret police, and repressed opposition, they knew it was for Communism.

No human system works. The big flaw in the communist plan was to forget that they are bound within at least 5 centuries of global capitalism.

Capitalism is not just an idea, it has grown out of technical advancement. So it was almost an inevitable part of the human condition.

Communism was its critique, but a very poor one for not realising that the historical and technological forces that bring capitalism about would not be so easily reversed.

Finally, Marx argued that capitalism was necessary to bring about a critical ma** of wealth. Capitalism would then collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. Then the working cla** could take over and establish its dictatorship, divide the spoils of capitalism and everyone would live happily ever after.

So Marx also believed in capitalism. Problem was his teleology - saw everything as one long line of progress wihich would end in utopia.

Thanks to the 2nd World War and Foucault, we don't believe there's an ultimate point to human history anymore.


Dpleezy

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what i meant was that communism as an ideal didn't make the people suffer,,, the way it was implemented did.

"Thanks to the 2nd World War and Foucault, we don't believe there's an ultimate point to human history anymore."

hahah,,, that's got to be one of the most audaciously sweeping statements in the history of humankind :)


DJ_Nastie_Ed

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the problem with communism is the centralisation of power. "Some  are more equal than others" - Orwell (Animal Farm). Even though many individuals walk into politics with ideologies intact with intent to not merely enrich themselves but for the benefit of a nation most find themselves becoming complacent as time pa**es and they take the power, wealth and other resources at their free disposal for granted, and begin to cling to them when they perceive the time to pa** the buck to have arrived. Look at Robert Mugabe.

This of course is not exclusive to communism, it is human nature and therefore also exists in the milieu of democracy and capitalism. However, in democracy these individuals/organizations/forces at the top of the pyramid can be kept in check by the wrath of the ma**es should they abuse this power too much, BUT in communism, with everything belonging to the state, the state is effectively god.

Of course the people in power are still abusing their powers in our contemporary 'western society', running dirty tricks behind the scenes and keeping the wrath and 'sauron's eye' of the ma**es in check and distracted through media. my argument is...that ANY centralisation/monopoly are subject to potentially being abused by power. Fox News/Microsoft etc.

As focault puts it...knowledge is power, He who controls knowledge (the media/ the state/ the corporations) will use that power to bend it to his will...why? Because he wants to retain his status quo. This will happen with any centralisation, unless there are other external independent forces that act as a counter-force to keep the inevitable-effect-of-human-nature in check. Of course there are certain temporary states where centralisation can work...if the seat of power is occupied by an indivdual who is aware of his purpose position as temporary guardian of power - Madiba was one of these people, and emperor of Nepal is one of those people - individuals who are aware of the dangers of centralisation of power and purposefully try to abject and distribute power to others. But they leave an open space for a potentially a more selfish minded successor. Communism would effectively be a more timid monarchy - some kings were better than other. But eventually one bad-a** King will rock up to f*** everything up. Except inseat of the king you would have a panel of decisionmaker 'comrades'.

I believe that the inernet is our saviour - with an ulimited amount of possible connection - a netowrk of knowledge (power) opinions and counter opinions (forces and counter-forces), the world is becoming an increasingly stable and safe place. Channels of knowledge are being distributed to the ma**es without a centralised channel (like any news network) that filters and dilutes knowledge and shapes it according to the political paradigm it co-exists in. eg. CNN, Fox News etc...have to cooperate with the us government because otherwise they dont get the juicy 'treats' (eg. being able to broadcast live war), They are all in the same bed. Read Noam Chomsky's 'Manufacturing Consent' - very enlightening on that topic.

The internet is an exciting 'technical advancement' as applied to Foucault's notions of of Knoweldge and Power. subject (individuals or organisation) learn to exert self-discipline when they perceive their own visibility which, Foucault argues, is the initial motivating factor for learning to discipline the self., and eventually begin changing to 'become' the new 'ideal' in line with the 'popular common sense', which is increasingly tending towards a more 'socialistic' contentmen for ALL people. Yes i'm an idealist. But its the way the world seems to be heading, because in dialogue the truth begins to unravel itself as more and more opinions are added.... with THIS THREAD and AG being a good example of a think tank producing mature and realistic opinion, as reality IS constucted in social discourse, shaping and being shaped concurrently (but thats another topic). NOW i have to go take a piss


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Quote from: "DJ_Nastie_Ed"

The internet is an exciting 'technical advancement' as applied to Foucault's notions of of Knoweldge and Power. subject (individuals or organisation) learn to exert self-discipline when they perceive their own visibility which, Foucault argues, is the initial motivating factor for learning to discipline the self., and eventually begin changing to 'become' the new 'ideal' in line with the 'popular common sense', which is increasingly tending towards a more 'socialistic' contentmen for ALL people. Yes i'm an idealist. But its the way the 1st world seems to be heading.


yeah  :?  very very idealistic indeed... i'm hard pressed to see how the internet (the ultimate emissary of 1st world imperialism) could give birth to an increased socialist outlook in the 3rd world, bearing in mind that the topic pertains to africa's way forward
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DJ_Nastie_Ed

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the 1st world and 3rd world are not seperate entities....a change in one will eventually change the other....albeit perhaps with considerable lag time.



How is the internet related to first world imperialism? Easy on the conspiracy theories there buddy. It is decentalized. It is a medium. Nothing else. No one controls it. The people who have access to it set the agenda. Sure...at the moment those people are mostly in the 1st world. But on a one-to-one level most people are basically good. A single articulate person from the third world can change the opinion of many through mediation of personal perspectives. Also internet is becoming increasingly pervasive, people carrying it on their cellphones, global sattelite access etc and prices are bound to drop down the line until it becomes affordable for everyone, or at the very least for the local library schools etc.. Eventually it will  merge with television with independent internet broadcasting etc.

And everyone is watching everyone. Imagine yourself in the future watching an internet news program/visual-aural experience. Every-time a point is made by the news presenter a link pops up to open a concurrent window with the most vote-supported clarifications, counter-opinions and counter-perspectives. The most ideal truths and opinions will bubble to the surface and form common sense, because the best argument wins in dialogue. And with an unlimited amount of people adding their arguments - most arguments will be heard and mediated 'covering-all-angles' decisions can be made. This is because no personal  agendas can survive in such an environment, and the only ones contributing to the arguments themselves are those who are interested in it, not because it happens to fall into their portfolio or job description and they actually couldn't give a flying f***.... Sure somepeople will resist it....but new generations will BE it.


KONFAB

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Quote from: "DJ_Nastie_Ed"
the 1st world and 3rd world are not seperate entities....a change in one will eventually change the other....albeit perhaps with considerable lag time


exactly... and that's just it!

you say

Quote
It is decentalized. It is a medium. Nothing else. No one controls it. The people who have access to it set the agenda. Sure...at the moment those people are mostly in the 1st world.


surely you see the contradiction there

Quote
But on a one-to-one level most people are basically good. A single articulate person from the third world can change the opinion of many through mediation of personal perspectives


you're right you ARE idealistic cos the aforementioned time lag will always be (we'll never catch up) and as long as there exists this medium where information and ideologies can be disseminated in an unabated manner by (in your own admission) those who have access to it, they will always be setting the agenda and very much in control...

look at what television has managed to achieve in its paltry 30 yrs of existence in south africa... its been the very vehicle through which the agendas/propaganda/way of life of the most influential have been sold to us...

i'm not denying that there are merits to it and countless ways in which we stand to benefit by being brought closer to the rest of the world... i'm just saying that it is not likely to reverse the 1st world's dominance over africa... what the original post was calling for, was for azania to extricate itself from the vice grip and influence of the world superpowers... this will not be achieved through increased internet access.

Quote
And everyone is watching everyone. The most ideal truths and opinions will bubble to the surface and form common sense, because the best argument wins in dialogue. And with an unlimited amount of people adding their arguments - most arguments will be heard and mediated 'covering-all-angles' decisions can be made. This is because there are no agenda's... Sure somepeople will resist it....but new generations will BE it


it would be nice but i really don't see it going this way... i see us watching them and their truths and opinions fighting to form common sense
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Quote from: "DJ_Nastie_Ed"
"Some  are more equal than others" - Orwell (Animal Farm).


don't have time to read ur whole post & am not a proponent of communism: but think it uttelry false & baseless to say that communism is more inherently unequal than capitalism...

in capitalism the material conditions in which one ekes out a living in determine the quality of democracy they enjoy. eg. globalisation has led to the further marginalisation & subjugation of the south & third world in general while @ the same time reaping great rewars for the industrialised north. furthermore- look @ the impact of the structural adjustments programmes of the world bank on the poor!

communism is far from being the answer, but so too is capitalism! (a middle path is necessary where there is some state intervention in the economy to more equitably distribute the dividends. what i'm talking about is a developmental state in the mould of the east asian tigers)
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DJ_Nastie_Ed

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Quote from: KONFAB

Quote
you're right you ARE idealistic cos the aforementioned time lag will always be (we'll never catch up) and as long as there exists this medium where information and ideologies can be disseminated in an unabated manner by (in your own admission) those who have access to it, they will always be setting the agenda and very much in control...


I disagree with you there. The lag time I am referring to is just temporary until dissemination happens - along the same lines as television. We'll never catch up? Who DOESNT have TV these days? Why would internet access be different. You'll find it in your home-appliances of the future. It'll be everywhere.

Quote
look at what television has managed to achieve in its paltry 30 yrs of existence in south africa... its been the very vehicle through which the agendas/propaganda/way of life of the most influential have been sold to us...


This brings me back full circle to my first post. The difference is decentralisation. Television Programming was controlled by the state (centralisation). And to REITERATE, the internet is decentralized. You are generalizing dangerously. It is not realistic to clump an entity such as the 1st world into a single unified organism. The internet breaks down precicely THIS misconception. Knowledge is disseminated on a direct peer-to-peer one-to-one basis.  'First world' becomes meaningless. Everyone has a different opinion...and increasingly so as independent internet media becomes more mainstream - because peoples perceptions will no longer be shaped by centralised power-knowledge distributors like CNN.

I'd suggest you take a closer look at your definition of the first world. Your  use of the '1st world as a concept seems to be very shallow.

Your anger is directed at 'The Man' - the entities holding centralised power and controlling the current world order and opinion 'through state- and finance dependent media channels'. As I have already argued, the internet bypa**es these bottlenecks. The entire paradigm shifts.


KONFAB

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i've used the terms 1st and 3rd world in as shallow a sense as they have always been used to portray the geopolitical world blocs which began to take form after the 2nd world war, where everyone accepts the 1st world as being the developed "western" capitalist democratic-industrial countries within the sphere of american influence... and the term 3rd world is a rough description of the deleloping african, latin-american and some asian countries (a good 3/4 of the world) which are characterised by their lack of influence over world issues and developments... and if you insist, the 2nd world refers to the former socialist-communist eastern bloc states...

a case in pt is that the 3rd world was used as a major bargaining tool during the cold war between the 1st and 2nd worlds and was ultimately won over by the 1st world capitalists...

admittedly the term 1st world has grown quite nebulous since the end of the cold war and since the advent of globilisation, but that's only relative to the 2nd world... the 3rd world still very much exists and honestly nastie, i don't see that the internet is going to bring it on par with yes the 1st world, let alone ultimately promote a more socialist outlook on the part of 3rd world inhabitants... if anything i see africans progressively becoming less and less about the next man vis. the demise of ubuntu

yes, my anger is directed at the man... and you can't convince me he doesn't exist... not in light of today's world factions... is africa any more significant geopolitically than it was yesterday? hardly...

"who doesn't have a tv these days?" Confused you can't be serious...
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DJ_Nastie_Ed

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Fair enough, let me rephrase "who doesn't have ACCESS to tv these days?".

Libraries, schools, cellphones public internet ATM's (These exist in europe already, crazy shit. looks like an arcade...you put in 2 bux and u got 15 minutes to check your mail and post on AG) . It'll be around. Access wont be restricted. So some wont have it at home but there is nothing to prevent access to anyone? Its coming.



I am convinced that African flavour will begin to pour into mainstream media via the internet. Its already happening. When i goto europe people gobble up the shit we produce down here in terms of hip-hop like its crack. The World is fascinated by Africa, its where today's mainstream music originated. Rythm Soul The Funk etc all originated here and was moved to the states where it got a voice.

 You are a case in point. Some form of African Renaissance will happen through the internet. Slowly african media african ideas and african stories will penetrate the worlds media as told BY AFRICANS and not presented in the current patronising victimising form by EUROPEANS (PS AlJAzeera is opening up a global news netowkr with offices in JHB). Shit...theres so much interesting shit going in africa...the world is dying to know. I believe Africa (at least SA for now) will be in a very fortunate position with african flair-flavour increasingly pervading worldwide mainstream culture  and changing perceptions and intentions in regards to improving the 3rd world.

First of course we need to build our media production. But its only a matter oftime. Look at the improvement in music and film production quality in the last 5 years. Suddenly local music and films are being nomitated for oscars, grammy's and cannes festivals and shit. The first world wants to know more. Once africa has a voice and produces itself in the media it can begin to influence public perception about the continent.

Once a dialogue has been opened on a certain topic it cannot be subdued. But first its gotta be put out there in a form easily accessible to everyone. Internet baby.