Question for AG

Sduhla · **on:** July 03, 2006, 03:17:48 PM

I got an anology that I'd like to pose to ya'll AG cats.
A dude gets arrested, and while behind bars, is treated like a bitch by all the real gangstas. This same dude, lets call Tsotsi, comes out tatooted all over his body, includin his face, and looks real grimy to anyone whose never been to prison, and thus can not appreciate that it's only bitch a** dudes that get tatooted in the face behind bars. Our little Tsotsi starts actin hard and terrorisin the neighbourhood, so that he can prove his jail stripes. Ma question is then, who is at fault here? Is it Tsotsi for frontin to be somethin he aint, or is it the community not knowin that Tsotsi is actually a little bitch. U might be askin urself wut this anology have to do wit hip hop.
Well, I just feel that a lot of dudes that are felt in the local hip hop scene right now are our little Tsotsis, and are shinin because of the weakness of the scene. I'm not a rapper, and have never been one. I do however consider myself a serious scholar of the culture of hip hop, emceein in particular. Thus I've a**ociated maself wit emcee's for most of ma teenage and adult life. I know a lot of these dudes insecurities, and many are based on the fact that they know that they aint THAT nice. I think Proverb is average at very best. He's repetitive, regegitates, and even bites people's lines. But he gets away wit it, like our lil Tsotsi, coz the majority of his audiance either don't listen well or don't know any betta. As for Zubz, I've already expressed ma views on another thread, dude should thank his parents for an education that imbuened him wit an accent. HHP, Tuks, Morafe, SK, Zulu Mob, Amu, Wikid, Selywen are all garbage, and they know it too. That's one side of the spectrum.....
In the 'underground', u got a dude called Ordonus, whom like his more popular counterparts has animal stupidity. His favourite line in all his freestyles is'U like a vertical earthworm', which usually invokes applause from his audiance. Then there's Gene Grenith Mr "l'll rip ur pussy, u pussies can't f*** wit me, when I'm havin vagina monologue", this gibberish pa**es for intelligence in the 'undergroung'. Architypes "I got flows like NGO's", and these dudes are suppose to be clever! Then there's Isaak aka Crooked, whose claim to fame is concotin as much adjectives as he possibly can. Ma favourite line from him is from audio visual album...." When I'm oscilatin vertically, non of ya'll can f*** wit me".
I however think that there are a lot of talented dudes out there. I think 3WR is the hottest clique out here right now, thus they doin big things wit people wit clout in the US and Europe. I think Kaptain is crazy nice, Dethkowd is nice especially on free, Prokid is nice, Cashless nice but incoherant, and Tumi, homeboy also doin big thangs in Europe. The only unfortunate thing abt Cashless, they lost a smart dude in Draztic, and now have no f***en structure!
Call me a hater, it is wut it is. I don't come here to this site to be a Yes men, and fish for new friends, I got enuff of those. I hope we can discuss hip hop honestly.

The Angry Hand of God · **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2006, 03:54:09 PM

Its scary how much I agree with you on almost everything you said.
I would suggest some spelling lessons though, otherwise everyone's just gonna shit on you and not take you seriously, cos all those mistakes just make you seem like a pseudointellectual wannabe hip-hop scholar.

Quote

I think Proverb is average at very best. He's repetitive, regegitates, and even bites people's lines. But he gets away wit it, like our lil Tsotsi, coz the majority of his audiance either don't listen well or don't know any betta

Quote

HHP, Tuks, Morafe, SK, Zulu Mob, Amu, Wikid, Selywen are all garbage, and they know it too. That's one side of the spectrum

so True, so true. I'm not even gonna get into all the spaced out "underground cats" cos this arguement has been discussed ad nauseum.

Lets talk about MAriah Carey's breasts and a**. This woman seems to be getting better and better the older she gets.

authentic · **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2006, 05:34:08 PM

i see where you coming from with your arguement n what i got to say is this :
personally i think Proverbs is an above average emcee , ofcoz we ol got our own ideas of a good/whack emcee n to mie Pro holds it down preety good.I have already said n spilled ma thoughts bout his album n still would say tha same to this day.Secondly this "undaground" tag gets to mie a lot of times , i mean its either catts spitting a whole lotof science in they rhymes , a whole lot of twisted ,dark n gothis shit in they rhymes , 30 bar verses n all n for that what do they get , the "undaground" tag ,which usually means better than tha rest so called "mainstream" artists ..... wit mie i think

"Ma question is then, who is at fault here? Is it Tsotsi for frontin to be somethin he aint, or is it the community not knowin that Tsotsi is actually a little bitch."

noone is to blame n am really tryna see what ya mean by "insecurities" ... coz i think we all juss tryna hear tha music not tryna study or connect tha music wit tha spitter .if you tac music as art then you would appreciate it a whole lot easier .... so whether dude is a gangsta n he spit it out n it sounds lame i aint gone peep it n all,but if someone that aint does spit bout tha street life say like Nas rapping bout what he seen from his wondow ,even though he aint live it he a gheto comentator n if i feel it i will bump it ..........
dat said n done i still like Tumi , dude got talent

dyna!mic · **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2006, 06:13:27 PM

FIRSTLY I'LL SAY MOST OF OF THE COMMENTS HERE ARE A REFLECTION OF MY THOUGHTS.I BELIEVE ITS BECAUSE EMCEES HAVE TO SELL RECORDS AND LETS BE HONEST MOST OF THE BUYERS ARE THE YOUTH WHO GO WITH THE FLOW.(excuse the pun) AND THE ''REAL'' HEADS WOULD RATHER COPY OR DOWNLOAD AN ALBUM.SO THE PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE OF EMCEEING DONT BUY THE ALBUMS...SO THEY EXPLOIT THESE WANNABEES AND NOW THE WANNABEE MUSIC IS WHAT WE CALL COMMERCIAL HIP HOP.

DAZ aka-Cyfa Lojik (PPL ON THE STREET) · **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2006, 07:58:13 PM

i think the illest emcees will never be known cuza alot of the cats i have been in the company of could slaughter many underground and comercial cats. but 3WR and landmyns entertainment have shown wat the streets can deliver, just remember there are many cats working on there ish right now and i rate that the next 4 yrs is gonna be a pinnacle for hip hop in as many cats fight to lay the foundations and the compitition is gonna blow all these fake cats the f*** of the map.. or at least i hope so !

Dpleezy · **Reply #5 on:** July 04, 2006, 10:35:03 AM

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, Sduhla, the issue is more complicated than that. People don't like HHP, Tuks, SK etc because they don't know better, they like them because they make popular (South African) music. What I mean by that is that they make accessible catchy music that reflects mainstream South African culture. There is no point comparing them to whichever 'real' US Hip Hop artist you choose.

The music-buying public doesn't care about the same things 'heads' do. They don't listen to rhyme structure, metaphors and punchlines, they listen to flows, hooks and grooves. Popular music is not necessarily about being original, "real", or even particularly talented, it's about making music that people can dance to when they are at a party. It's about making a catchy hook that someone can sing along to after hearing just once. It is also (and probably most importantly) about reflecting culture.

This is why Kwaito is so popular compared to Hip Hop. Most people do not see themselves reflected in our Hip Hop artists, they see (and hear) American culture and feel alienated by it. This is not the fault of the music (which I believe is universal), it is what our artists do with it. Yes, I am talking about American accents, slang and style. I would be AMAZED if a South African artist with an American accent ever sold more than 20,000 units.

We also have a very immature market in South Africa. Unlike more developed markets like the US or Europe, we do not have a big enough audience to accommodate an "underground" - there is no room for niche music. This makes things very difficult for artists like Ben Sharpa (Kaptain) who are undoubtedly hugely talented, but do not make 'commercial' music.

Yes, many of our local MCs just aren't very good, but the argument is about more than the audience being 'uneducated' and easily fooled by 'Tsotsis'. South African Hip Hop is still in its infancy despite having been around for many years. Just like in the UK where it is only recently that rappers have managed to create music that reflects their own culture, our artists need to find their own voices and make culturally relevant music for our people.

For me, Pro Kid represents the way forward for South African Hip Hop. He keeps it street with real lyrical skill and he reflects SA culture. This is why 'underground' heads and Kwaito cats respect him, and the general public feels him too. Hopefully PK's success will open up the market for more diverse forms of Hip Hop, so that artists with real talent like Ben Sharpa and Konfab can earn a living.

fahfee · **Reply #6 on:** July 04, 2006, 08:58:01 PM

I totally blame the fans/radio listeners/cd-buyers. Artists wont make garbage if people dont buy it. Or at least not as much as we hear today.

and I think not just in South Africa but worldwide the age of the lyricist is long-gone. and things are not looking brigher in the future. All these new cats have no sense of history or paying dues. You even have new producers dissing Premier and looking down on sampling. just an example of where things are headed.

one of those lines you quoted might a Pa** from me but i dont look into every line a rapper says. not these days.

Original Syn · **Reply #7 on:** July 04, 2006, 10:42:41 PM

co-sign on what Dplanet said....

Dpleezy · **Reply #8 on:** July 05, 2006, 12:29:21 AM

Quote from: "fahfee"

I totally blame the fans/radio listeners/cd-buyers. Artists wont make garbage if people dont buy it. Or at least not as much as we hear today.

and I think not just in South Africa but worldwide the age of the lyricist is long-gone. and things are not looking brigher in the future. All these new cats have no sense of history or paying dues. You even have new producers dissing Premier and looking down on sampling. just an example of where things are headed.

one of those lines you quoted might a Pa** from me but i dont look into every line a rapper says. not these days.

Fahfee,,, I don't believe the age of the lyricist is dead. Hip Hop has always had its commercial side - it is just more prevalent these days. The great lyricists have generally always been great entertainers with big social messages. This is where our local MCs are not stepping up to the plate. The 'underground' cats ramble on about nothing, and the 'Golden Era' cats are stuck in a timewarp, confused as to whether they are from the South Western Township or the South Bronx. However talented some of these cats are, there is no hope for them as long as they stay on their current paths. I have a keen sense of history (and I believe that I have paid my dues), but we can't keep living in the past - everything has to evolve.

Someone suggested to me recently that because SA has been through a period of political oppression and is still just enjoying freedom, people don't want to hear about politics and social issues, they just wanna drink their beer and shake that a**. I'm not sure that's totally true, but it could also be a challenge we should be aware of.

Part of the solution lies in the music. I have always believed that the combination of heavy messages and 'underground'/ abstract music is a turn-off. We only need look to Public Enemy and KRS1 to see that social messages and club-friendly music works. Both PE and KRS1 used banging, catchy beats with commercial elements like easy to remember hooks.

I believe that we also need to develop a sound of our own, something we can brand as South African Hip Hop - maybe we should even come up with a new name? Someone said it in another thread, the South has Crunk, the UK has Grime, what have we got? I've always liked the name 'Spaza' although that represents more of a lyrical than a musical style.

Anyway,,, it's an interesting journey. We're still pioneering this shit.

Original Syn · **Reply #9 on:** July 05, 2006, 12:32:46 AM

What the heck.... i'll co-sign this one too Dp..... I just heard a rumour that Peanut Butter Wolf is in Cape Town and performing 2nite at Fiction, might swing by to check that out shortly.

Sduhla · **Reply #10 on:** July 06, 2006, 02:13:26 PM

Thank u Dplanet and Fahfee for ur contributions. Like wise I agree wit most of wut DP has said. I however, have to strongly disagree wit the view that HHP, Tuks and the like are a reflection of South African music. My disagreement is based on two points, the first being that, the argument of culture makes the presumption of homogeinity in culture. The second point is that, it is mainstream corporate owned media, radio and tv in particular, that define wut is hot and wut is not. I know a lot of people that would not like an artist until they see him on tv or hear him on radio.
As for the dude who thinks people might laugh at me coz of ma spellin, I do not come on this forum to make buddies and be a yes man.