Get Dropox | Luno Bitcoin | Ovex Crypto | Binance | Get Free Crypto - Morpher
Africasgateway.com

Death Penalty

Poll

Do you want the Death Penalty in South Africa?

Yes
4 (66.7%)
No
2 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: September 29, 2006, 08:51:30 PM

SubTopic

  • AG Hustler
  • ***
    • Posts: 93
    • REP: +0/-0
    • Gender:Male
    • View Profile
looks like we might be having a referendum on this issue.  how would you vote?

Quote
Cape Town - The Inkatha Freedom Party added its voice on Friday to those supporting High Court Judge Gerhardus Hattingh's call for a referendum on the death penalty.

"The IFP calls on government to set the wheels of democracy in motion, to allow every citizen of this country to decide for themselves whether or not the death penalty should be reinstated," IFP Chief Whip Koos van der Merwe said.

The crime statistics released this week showed there was an "enormous problem with atrocious crimes", such as murder, and therefore every South African should be given the right to have their say through a referendum.

The IFP also backed Hattingh's statement that a life sentence was misleading to the public, as prisoners were eligible for parole after spending 25 years in prison, depending on behaviour.

"Furthermore, we call on government to allow ordinary South Africans to decide for themselves on hotly debated issues by way of referendums."

South Africa was a democracy, so South Africans should decide on issues seriously affecting their lives, Van der Merwe said.

Hattingh presided over the murder trial of the killers of Transvaal Judge President Bernard Ngoepe's grandchild, Makgabo Matlala.


Dpleezy

  • Run Tings
  • AG O.G.
  • *
    • Posts: 6814
    • REP: +26/-56
    • Gender:Male
    • View Profile
    • Pioneer Unit Records
arguments against death penalty:

1. The death penalty does not deter crime, rather, it perniciously enhances and exacerbates the culture of violence and death through state murder.

2. The 'no recidivism' (repeat offending) with death penalty argument is simplistic, crude and primitive - based purely on blood revenge, ignoring all of the cla**ic principles of justice, such as proportionality, distribution, and rehabilitation.

3. The very real risk the innocent will be executed - According to a Stanford Law Review study of approximately 7,000 people executed in the United States since 1900, at least twenty-three were innocent.

4. In the US, the death penalty has been shown to be racist, cla**ist and financially contingent. Why would SA be any different?

5. The death penalty is not a real deterrant. Eighteen of the twenty US states with the highest murder rates today have the death penalty. Seventeen of the cities with the highest murder rates are in death penalty jurisdictions. Texas has executed more people in the past decade than any other state, yet still has three cities with murder rates nationally among the top twenty-five. New York has not executed anyone since 1963, but has no city among the twenty-five cities with the highest murder rates in the United States. Canada abolished capital punishment in 1975, yet the murder rate in Canada declined consistently over the next decade.

6. Financial cost of death penalty compared to incarceration for life without possibility of parole. In the US, life without parole is one-sixth as expensive as the over $3 million cost to execute someone through the exhaustion of all legal appeals.

In 1989, the New York State Department of Corrections determined that New York State could hire an additional 250 police officers and build prison space for an additional 6,000 more inmates for the amount that it would cost the state to reimpose the death penalty in a similar five-year period.

The core pragmatic and empirical question is the amount of police officer and other crime fighting resources that could be put at the community's disposal for the prevention of crime if incarceration for life without parole, rather than the death penalty, was the available alternative.

7. The religious argument. If you believe in God, you must believe that no one is beyond the redemptive, transformative power of God.

All the arguments (both for and against) are laid out nicely here:
http://www.balancedpolitics.org/death_penalty.htm


Dpleezy

  • Run Tings
  • AG O.G.
  • *
    • Posts: 6814
    • REP: +26/-56
    • Gender:Male
    • View Profile
    • Pioneer Unit Records
thought i might as well post them here:

AGAINST

1. Financial costs to taxpayers of capital punishment is several times that of keeping someone in prison for life. Most people don't realize that carrying out one death sentence costs 2-5 times more than keeping that same criminal in prison for the rest of his life. How can this be? It has to do with the endless appeals, additional required procedures, and legal   wrangling that drag the process out. It's not unusual for a prisoner to be on death row for 15-20 years. Judges, attorneys, court reporters, clerks, and court facilities all require a substantial investment by the taxpayers. Do we really have the resources to waste?

2. It is barbaric and violates the "cruel and unusual" clause in the Bill of Rights. Whether it's a firing squad, electric chair, gas chamber, lethal injection, or hanging, it's barbaric to allow state-sanctioned murder before a crowd of people. We condemn people like Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il when they murder their own people while we continue to do the same (although our procedures for allowing it are obviously more thorough). The 8th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prevents the use of "cruel and unusual punishment". Many would interpret the death penalty as violating this restriction.

3. The endless appeals and required additional procedures clog our court system. The U.S. court system goes to enormous lengths before allowing a death sentence to be carried out. All the appeals, motions, hearings, briefs, etc. monopolize much of the time of judges, attorneys, and other court employees as well as use up courtrooms & facilities. This is time & space that could be used for other unresolved matters. The court system is tremendously backed up. This would help move things along.

4. We as a society have to move away from the "eye for an eye" revenge mentality if civilization is to advance. The "eye for an eye" mentality will never solve anything. A revenge philosophy inevitably leads to an endless cycle of violence. Why do you think the Israeli-Palestine conflict has been going on for 50+ years? Why do you think gang violence in this country never seems to end? It is important to send a message to society that striking back at your enemy purely for revenge will always make matters worse.

5. It sends the wrong message: why kill people who kill people to show killing is wrong. Yes, we want to make sure there is accountability for crime and an effective deterrent in place; however, the death penalty has a message of "You killed one of us, so we'll kill you". The state is actually using a murder to punish someone who committed a murder. Does that make sense?

6. Life in prison is a worse punishment and a more effective deterrent. For those of you who don't feel much sympathy for a murderer, keep in mind that death may be too good for them. With a death sentence, the suffering is over in an instant. With life in prison, the pain goes on for decades. Prisoners are confined to a cage and live in an internal environment of rape and violence where they're treated as animals. And consider terrorists. Do you think they'd rather suffer the humiliation of lifelong prison or be "martyred" by a death sentence?

7. Other countries (especially in Europe) would have a more favorable image of America. It's no secret that anti-Americanism is rampant around the world. One of the reasons is America's continued use of the death penalty. We're seen as a violent, vengeful nation for such a policy. This is pretty much the same view that Europeans had of America when we continued the practice of slavery long after it had been banned in Europe.

8. Some jury members are reluctant to convict if it means putting someone to death. Many states require any jury members to be polled during the pre-trial examination to be sure they have the stomach to sentence someone to death before they're allowed to serve. Even if they're against the death penalty, they still may lie in order to get on the panel. The thought of agreeing to kill someone even influences some jury members to acquit rather than risk the death. Some prosecutors may go for a lesser charge rather than force juries into a death-or-acquit choice. Obviously, in all these situations, justice may not be served.

9. The prisoner's family must suffer from seeing their loved one put to death by the state. One victim's innocent family is obviously forced to suffer from a capital murder, but by enforcing a death sentence, you force another family to suffer. Why double the suffering when we don't have to?

10. The possibility exists that innocent men and women may be put to death. There are several documented cases where DNA testing showed that innocent people were put to death by the government. We have an imperfect justice system where poor defendants are given minimal legal attention by often lesser qualified individuals. We can't risk mistakes.

11. Mentally ill patients may be put to death. Many people are simply born with defects to their brain that cause them to act a certain way. No amount of drugs, schooling, rehabilitation, or positive reinforcement will change them. Is it fair that someone should be murdered just because they were unlucky enough to be born with a brain defect.

12.It creates sympathy for the monsterous perpetrators of the crimes. Criminals usually are looked down upon by society. People are disgusted by the vile, unconscionable acts they commit and feel tremendous sympathy for the victims of murder, rape, etc. However, the death penalty has a way of shifting sympathy away from the victims and to the criminals themselves.

13. It is useless in that it doesn't bring the victim back to life. Perhaps the biggest reason to ban the death penalty is that it doesn't change the fact that the victim is gone and will never come back. Hate, revenge, and anger will never cure the emptiness of a lost loved one. Forgiveness is the only way to start the healing process, and this won't happen in a revenge-focused individual.


FOR

1. The death penalty gives closure to the victim's families who have suffered so much. Some family members of crime victims may take years or decades to recover from the shock and loss of a loved one. Some may never recover. One of the things that helps hasten this recovery is to achieve some kind of closure. Life in prison just means the criminal is still around to haunt the victim. A death sentence brings finality to a horrible chapter in the lives of these family members.

2. It creates another form of crime deterrent. Crime would run rampant as never before if there wasn't some way to deter people from committing the acts. Prison time is an effective deterrent, but with some people, more is needed. Prosecutors should have the option of using a variety of punishments in order to minimize crime.

3. Justice is better served. The most fundamental principle of justice is that the punishment should fit the crime. When someone plans and brutally murders another person, doesn't it make sense that the punishment for the perpetrator also be death?

4. Our justice system shows more sympathy for criminals than it does victims. It's time we put the emphasis of our criminal justice system back on protecting the victim rather than the accused. Remember, a person who's on death row has almost always committed crimes before this. A long line of victims have been waiting for justice. We need justice for current and past victims.

5. It provides a deterrent for prisoners already serving a life sentence. What about people already sentenced to life in prison. What's to stop them from murdering people constantly while in prison? What are they going to do--extend his sentence? Sure, they can take away some prison privileges, but is this enough of a deterrent to stop the killing? What about a person sentenced to life who happens to escape? What's to stop him from killing anyone who might try to bring him in or curb his crime spree?

6. DNA testing can now effectively eliminate uncertainty as to a person's guilt or innocence. One of the biggest arguments against the death penalty is the possibility of error. Sure, we can never completely eliminate all uncertainty, but nowadays, it's about as close as you can get. DNA testing is over 99 percent effective. And even if DNA testing didn't exist, the trial and appeals process is so thorough it's next to impossible to convict an innocent person. Remember, a jury of 12 members must unanimously decide there's not even a reasonable doubt the person is guilty. The number of innocent people that might somehow be convicted is no greater than the number of innocent victims of the murderers who are set free.

7. Prisoner parole or escapes can give criminals another chance to kill. Perhaps the biggest reason to keep the death penalty is to prevent the crime from happening again. The parole system nowadays is a joke. Does it make sense to anyone outside the legal system to have multiple "life" sentences + 20 years or other jiverish? Even if a criminal is sentenced to life without possibility of parole, he still has a chance to kill while in prison, or even worse, escape and go on a crime/murder spree.


morph

  • AG Extremist
  • *****
    • Posts: 617
    • REP: +0/-0
    • View Profile
@ DPlanet  :evil:

So here is a the crux of the problem about what you posted
That was/is american's stand point on this issue we cannot by any means compare our selves to them with regards to this issue or any other for that matter.

points of conflict here

Quote
4. We as a society have to move away from the "eye for an eye"......Why do you think gang violence in this country never seems to end? It is important to send a message to society that striking back at your enemy purely for revenge will always make matters worse.....


^^ i disagree to a certain extent here.


Quote
Texas has executed more people in the past decade than any other state, yet still has three cities with murder rates nationally among the top twenty-five


^^Come on that is america man this is where you can go to your local Wall Mart and buy a gun... like heloo of course your death rate will increase  :?:  :?:  :?:  :evil:
how in gods name you goin to control guns if you sell them at wall mart...Please


We here have a different issue. It's not the level that is freakin people out it's the way the crime is commited. The barbaric nature of the crimes we experience in this country, the lack of visible policing (i see more ADT vans than a cop car pa** by on a daily basis... 8O **Thast scary**) is the real issue that we should be lookin at controlling

Rehabilitation is not goin to work when someone decide to think them selves like the Italian mafia and chop your body up C'mon. do think you can rehihabilitate that.

 :arrow:  :arrow:  :oops:
..Insanity is coasting throught life in a miserable existance when you have a key to a lion locked inside


Dpleezy

  • Run Tings
  • AG O.G.
  • *
    • Posts: 6814
    • REP: +26/-56
    • Gender:Male
    • View Profile
    • Pioneer Unit Records
Firstly,,, I copied and pasted those points above so I don't necessarily agree with every single sentiment expressed there (although I am against the death penalty). It's just a nice overview of the various arguments.

I do believe that we have to compare ourselves to other countries that have the death penalty because we will experiece the same issues here, especially with regard to judicial process and hard costs.

You're not seriously arguing that it is harder to get a gun in SA than it is in the States are you?

I think you'll find that there are equally barbaric crimes commited in the US as there are here. I am much more concerned about the level of crime, not how barbaric it is - being hacked to death with a panga, or killed with a bullet won't make any difference to me,,, i'll be dead either way.

And as for the "lack of visible policing", doesn't the argument that the death penalty costs more worry you? Either the tax payer will have to pay more, or other areas of law enforcement will suffer.

I am not a pschologist, but I do believe violent criminals can be rehabilitated.


afterbirth

  • AG Elite Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1203
    • REP: +5/-4
    • View Profile
am totally against the death penalty... sind it spurious that a country such as south africa that has just come out of such an abhorrent system such as apartheid would seek to throw away the cornerstone of the judicial system which is restorative justice as opposed to punitve justice!

even funnier though is "pseudo- liberals" who are pro- life yet support the death penalty.

doubt that even if sumone close to me was savagely murdered i'd advocate that the perpetrator be killed.... we need to stop thinking about this death penalty issue emotively, but rather rationally & dispa**ionately!
we can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light
--Plato


afterbirth

  • AG Elite Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1203
    • REP: +5/-4
    • View Profile
Quote from: "Dplanet"
You're not seriously arguing that it is harder to get a gun in SA than it is in the States are you?



did u see that m&g article that reports that an ak47 can be rented for R1000 a day, while u can get an R4 rifle for R4000?
we can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light
--Plato


morph

  • AG Extremist
  • *****
    • Posts: 617
    • REP: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Quote from: "Dplanet"



And as for the "lack of visible policing", doesn't the argument that the death penalty costs more worry you? Either the tax payer will have to pay more, or other areas of law enforcement will suffer.


point taken buti'm already paying too much tax. Look those mec's will always find a way to put that money in thier back pocket.

Okay here a though lets re-open Robben Island!


Quote from: "Dplanet"


I am not a pschologist, but I do believe violent criminals can be rehabilitated.


Without sounding overzealous... How?

Can you rehabilitate the cat that raped That four year old killed her on some sadistic shit, the judge said the dude deserved to die now read the story of which i thinkkk you know and tell me where in this green earth do you start to rehabilitate this guy

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060929040233607C566037

 And you think about rehabilitating this guy

Renmember there are relapses even with alcohol, Crack, Cocaine and H  :?:
..Insanity is coasting throught life in a miserable existance when you have a key to a lion locked inside