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motley

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Yeah peops wat are your thoughts on Disgrace by Coetzee? I am currently reading it.


the panic!

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Yeah peops wat are your thoughts on Disgrace by Coetzee? I am currently reading it.

i didn't like it.


motley

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I feel you Panic. I'm still trying to understand why it got such good reviews.


the panic!

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@ Motho and the Panic:

Andile Mngxitama has written a series of articles, the series is called "New Frank Talks"
The 1st of the series was titled "Why steve Biko would not Vote"
2nd was titled "From Mbeki to Zuma, What's the difference?"
Now this 3rd one is called "Blacks Can't be racist" basically provoked by the whole Black Journalists forum thing last year. You can cop it at ritual for R20 bucks, the cats are doing the self publishing thing.

You can also check out www.wewrite.org but it seems the website was last updated in 2005 or so. Also google "Abahlali Basemjondolo" and see some work there.

At "Me" (yes you), thanks for the suggestion but I do not understand you dismissing Andile's writing like that, his arguments actually make a lot of sense. How much of his work have you read? Why exactly do you call it dogshit?

oh, this dude. i know this guy. he's doing a PhD at Wits and publishes pamphlets that he sells at Xarra books. i was told by an extremely reliable source that there really isn't much there. just Neo-Marxist proletarian fireworks.

i'll pa**.


The Angry Hand of God

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that there really isn't much there. just Neo-Marxist proletarian fireworks.

i'll pa**.

THIS




Sosiba

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@ Motho and the Panic:

Andile Mngxitama has written a series of articles, the series is called "New Frank Talks"
The 1st of the series was titled "Why steve Biko would not Vote"
2nd was titled "From Mbeki to Zuma, What's the difference?"
Now this 3rd one is called "Blacks Can't be racist" basically provoked by the whole Black Journalists forum thing last year. You can cop it at ritual for R20 bucks, the cats are doing the self publishing thing.

You can also check out www.wewrite.org but it seems the website was last updated in 2005 or so. Also google "Abahlali Basemjondolo" and see some work there.

At "Me" (yes you), thanks for the suggestion but I do not understand you dismissing Andile's writing like that, his arguments actually make a lot of sense. How much of his work have you read? Why exactly do you call it dogshit?

oh, this dude. i know this guy. he's doing a PhD at Wits and publishes pamphlets that he sells at Xarra books. i was told by an extremely reliable source that there really isn't much there. just Neo-Marxist proletarian fireworks.

i'll pa**.

Don't who your source was but if by neo-marxist and proletarian they meant writings about the exploitation of the workforce etc then I don't think they too right.

The book "Biko lives" was really an expansion/adaptation of Biko's philosophies to post-1994 SA. That's what most of the works I've read are about. These guys are providing an alternative way of looking at post-1994 SA to that we've been made to endorse (the romantic stance of reconciliation without justice). They argue (inter alia) that the 1994 settlement was a sell-out one, made to pacify a people who could have fought for more, that racism (if you interprete it as the subjugation of one group by another) still exists, that Whites still enjoy priviledges based on their skin colour, that there is no intergration happening but rather a**imilation with Black executives sent by White bosses to tell protesting balck workers that they won't get wage increases and a that democracy, the Constitution and having a black government have legitimised white supremacy.

"To many, 1994 remains a rumour"

I think they make compelling arguments, and it's not just me.
"Why was the worker shot? Because he protested... Why was the negro shot? Because he was there. This is the gratuitous (without cause) violence against Black people that so called pure marxist can't comprehend" Frank Wilderson.


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My problem with these people is not necessarily that I disagree with all of what they are saying, but the fact that they find it so difficult to look past the race issue in exploitation and miss the fact that even black owned companies and our black run government are the biggest exploiters out there.

Its a cla**ist debate, but they are so blinded by their black consciousness that they fail to see that it is blacks f***ing them over and then blaming the white man when they get caught. The exploitation is real and so is the '94 selloout. The problem is that they are too racist themselves to notice that its their own race responsible for it, and they write stupid shit like "Blacks can't be racist" in order to justify their blindness.




the panic!

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i think you have to be clear about whether you're discussing race or cla**.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 05:00:11 PM by the panic! »


The Angry Hand of God

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if the rainbow nation never existed then how 'real' is it to be against it? you are instilling the same paradigm into someone's consciousness, only in reverse. in the context of a concrete reality where we address concrete concerns such as shelter and food ideology is irrelevant.

i don't believe in anything political, whenever i come into contact with it, i immediately feel that it will mostly be false and/or irrelevant to concrete reality. this is because it is impossible to hold a political worldview without, to some extent, believing in a world of opposites. which is irrational because all ideas come from same group of organisms (humans) and all of them have an interchangeable sense of truth and truth, again, is a largely irrelevant concept when considered against concrete reality.


Dialectics...




Sosiba

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if the rainbow nation never existed then how 'real' is it to be against it? you are instilling the same paradigm into someone's consciousness, only in reverse. in the context of a concrete reality where we address concrete concerns such as shelter and food ideology is irrelevant.

i don't believe in anything political, whenever i come into contact with it, i immediately feel that it will mostly be false and/or irrelevant to concrete reality. this is because it is impossible to hold a political worldview without, to some extent, believing in a world of opposites. which is irrational because all ideas come from same group of organisms (humans) and all of them have an interchangeable sense of truth and truth, again, is a largely irrelevant concept when considered against concrete reality.


Dialectics...
My problem with these people is not necessarily that I disagree with all of what they are saying, but the fact that they find it so difficult to look past the race issue in exploitation and miss the fact that even black owned companies and our black run government are the biggest exploiters out there.

Its a cla**ist debate, but they are so blinded by their black consciousness that they fail to see that it is blacks f***ing them over and then blaming the white man when they get caught. The exploitation is real and so is the '94 selloout. The problem is that they are too racist themselves to notice that its their own race responsible for it, and they write stupid shit like "Blacks can't be racist" in order to justify their blindness.

"Me", apartheid was capitalism based on race, the reality is that althought there were white people who opposed the exploitaion they benefited from it in some way (all white people did). For example the radicals could be sure that if they were to change their view and support the system, they'd sure have a huge chance of getting a good job (with less competition from the blacks). Andile points out that in Soweto's graveyard where the communist revolutionary Joe Slovo was burried there is a board written, "Here lies Joe Slovo among others". Because he is white, it's only him they give the dignity of having a name (and not just be an "other") which should accrue to all human beings.

You cannot redress effects of a racist capitalist sytem by embracing a concept of immaterial equality. Yes the debate also involves cla** and blacks are the largest percentage of the lower cla**. How many of the apartheid radicals lived in overcrowded townships that their black comrades lived in. Were they not sure that just because of their skin colour police would treat them with more respect? How many white marxists actually grew up in families where fathers worked in White owned mines for a few pennies, where you actually feel exploitation?

So yes the debate involves cla** and blacks are a huge percentage of the lower cla**. To have whites admit guilt, through things like the TRC and some being marxists who won't accept the problem is race is patronising.

now Panic, political views influenced the CODESA negotiations and the resultant polictical order... concrete reality is that Black people live in Diepsloot, Hillbrow, Alexandra (adjacent to a mainly white Sandton) and because we live in a "free country that is founded on equality" we almost take these as Natural...Our president thinks a debate on race is backward thinking.
"Why was the worker shot? Because he protested... Why was the negro shot? Because he was there. This is the gratuitous (without cause) violence against Black people that so called pure marxist can't comprehend" Frank Wilderson.


A pimp named Sarkozy

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if the rainbow nation never existed then how 'real' is it to be against it? you are instilling the same paradigm into someone's consciousness, only in reverse. in the context of a concrete reality where we address concrete concerns such as shelter and food ideology is irrelevant.

i don't believe in anything political, whenever i come into contact with it, i immediately feel that it will mostly be false and/or irrelevant to concrete reality. this is because it is impossible to hold a political worldview without, to some extent, believing in a world of opposites. which is irrational because all ideas come from same group of organisms (humans) and all of them have an interchangeable sense of truth and truth, again, is a largely irrelevant concept when considered against concrete reality.


Dialectics...
My problem with these people is not necessarily that I disagree with all of what they are saying, but the fact that they find it so difficult to look past the race issue in exploitation and miss the fact that even black owned companies and our black run government are the biggest exploiters out there.

Its a cla**ist debate, but they are so blinded by their black consciousness that they fail to see that it is blacks f***ing them over and then blaming the white man when they get caught. The exploitation is real and so is the '94 selloout. The problem is that they are too racist themselves to notice that its their own race responsible for it, and they write stupid shit like "Blacks can't be racist" in order to justify their blindness.

"Me", apartheid was capitalism based on race, the reality is that althought there were white people who opposed the exploitaion they benefited from it in some way (all white people did). For example the radicals could be sure that if they were to change their view and support the system, they'd sure have a huge chance of getting a good job (with less competition from the blacks). Andile points out that in Soweto's graveyard where the communist revolutionary Joe Slovo was burried there is a board written, "Here lies Joe Slovo among others". Because he is white, it's only him they give the dignity of having a name (and not just be an "other") which should accrue to all human beings.

You cannot redress effects of a racist capitalist sytem by embracing a concept of immaterial equality. Yes the debate also involves cla** and blacks are the largest percentage of the lower cla**. How many of the apartheid radicals lived in overcrowded townships that their black comrades lived in. Were they not sure that just because of their skin colour police would treat them with more respect? How many white marxists actually grew up in families where fathers worked in White owned mines for a few pennies, where you actually feel exploitation?

So yes the debate involves cla** and blacks are a huge percentage of the lower cla**. To have whites admit guilt, through things like the TRC and some being marxists who won't accept the problem is race is patronising.

now Panic, political views influenced the CODESA negotiations and the resultant polictical order... concrete reality is that Black people live in Diepsloot, Hillbrow, Alexandra (adjacent to a mainly white Sandton) and because we live in a "free country that is founded on equality" we almost take these as Natural...Our president thinks a debate on race is backward thinking.

Co-sign.

@ Panic & Motley, yeah actually if you want Good reviews for your book,you have to pay for it they ask the Big industry guys to cosign your book that its must a read and a cla**ic even though its  lol.  Its like Payola ;D

Has anyone had a chance to peek through the book "Is coz im Black" I finished reading it 2 weeks back.Hilarious as Mofo i enjoyed reading his pen game and Jabs he was throwing @ them.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 04:49:29 PM by New,Jack »


motho

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Just read "Reading Lolita in Tehran by Azar Nefisi"

The book is about Nefisi (the author) who returned to Iran during the revolution circa 1978 to 1981. She lived there till she left again in 1997, she was a professor at the University of Tehran and University of Allameh Tabatabei.

The book is about how she too ka group of girls to her house and they had a 'study group" of sorts where they read books which were banned at the time, like Lolita, Great Gatzby, invitation to a beheading  etc. But it's not just about the women's (and other students in Nafisi's cla**es) reactions to these book but also what is going on around them like bombs being dropped nearby, being forced to wear the scarf and just other elements of the "revolution.

Really interesting to read about how and why different people around Nefisi and her students chose to stay and how the "revolution" affected their lives. I would recommend this, highly, esp. if u have an interest in the Middle East  ;)
"your real calibre is measured by your consideration and tolerance of others"


LetsogoLaPlastik

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So whats the deal? no one is reading in 2010? Books Ive read in 2010

1. Architects of Poverty_____Moeletsi mbeki (some Argentinian dude borrowed me, still need my own copy)

2. Confessions Of an Economic Hitman___John Perkins (nice read but redundant)

3. Fools___Njabulo Ndebele (20years later its still a worthwhile read)

Just started with After the Party (Andrew Feinstein).......cant believe he was intimidated by some ANC operatives for writing it................so what are you reading fellas??let the thread go on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Ha o mpona oska.....nkatumela!!!!


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Interview with Feinstein here: http://robboffard.com/page15.htm#Feinstein

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General Ratzinger van Stilzkin

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Zahir - Paulo Coelho! 
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