Originality

[Gemini aka Gembot]

You know alot of producers in South Africa are killing shit these days. I like what I hear, but one thing still f***s with me though. The lack of an original sound. Now that y'all have your technique down, don't you think its time to explore what a South African beat sounds like? New York owns Boom Bap and Jiggy, The South Owns Crunk, The West owns G-Funk and what have you. Now granted a baby learns to talk and walk drawing from their closest and dearest influences. But once a baby has mastered speech and walking, he or she find their own path to what makes them unique. Westcoast niggaz embraced the 808, glossy, slick musical production because that was the vibe in places like Cali. New York embraced the avantguard, industrial jazzed out sound because thats the culture in New York. Its an arthouse 100 times over. The South also embraced the west coast sound but focused on 808's, live ba** grooves and Analog synths that were once popular in techno clubs in the early 90's. This might sound crazy but I also believe that weather patterns influenced the way people recieve music in those areas. For instance Cali has hot summers with rain in some parts and so does the south hence the similarities. Where as New York winters are brutal and force one to rock ear phones that might focus ones attention on technique rather than style. Bare with me, I'm going somewhere with this. Now in Mzansi, hip-hop is as alternative as watching manga flicks and reading comic books, why? Because our culture is different from Americas. In America hip-hop is the result of its musical culture which started with jazz then blues then rock then r&b then pop music and at the end of that dynamic is hip-hop. So for us its adopted and aquired. We as producers and beat makers have the responsibility to create a sound scape that separates us from the U.S one that is unmistakably Mzansi shit. I feel lyrically we're pretty close to getting it, but production wise as much as we've progressed. We have fallen in the same trap that made european hip-hop a concept instead of a movement. I believe South Africa can carve out its own identity production wise coz we have so much culture...C;mon y'all its not just about making beats, its about creating a vibe, making people feel. Do you ever think about if you had to go to America, who would f*** with you and how many niggaz are making beats like you...Think about it

[watziznehmegin]

I agree to some extent, I feel like the culmination of an environments musical history along with the weather, to the way people carry themselves, all comes together to form a regions cultural expression, which is reflected in their music, from rhythm and tempo, to how the music is consumed (in earphones, in a car), but I would have to disagree on the european tip, although hip-hop as a culture is loosing it's footing in some countries, France really got it locked, the way hip-hop is lived in Paris is really second to none at the moment, they are still breaking like it was the eighties, they have some of the freshest b-boys in the world (along with Korea, Japan,...) America has really kind of lost it, maybe they will be back, but they aren't rocking it the way they used to. The Graffiti game in Europe is also on a WHOLE OTHER LEVEL than in the U.S., mostly because their rail system is far better developed, and they just haven't given up on it yet, but as to the distinct South African sound you speak of, It's developing! I really feel you can hear this kind of development in some of the newer stuff from Eastern Europe, especially Poland where I am positive they are rocking SP12's, the samples they are utilizing are very Polish, and Poland (similar to France, South Africa, West Africa, Ethiopia, Brazil and so forth) adopted Jazz, from it's early years, allowing the artists to come perform, adopting the musical style, making it their own, creating variations, I feel the countries who can most relate to the struggle, and who have had open doors regarding the Art, end up pushing the boundaries forward the most.

[Killa Merc]

While I do not subscribe to the whole, "everything must sound Mzansi original", I applaud Bongz for making those Hip Hop Mbaqanga beats. That is unique. I think MPH37 has tried something unique at times. But damn, good music is good music.As a fan, I dig the beat on Woz o babona by Pro kid. I dont even know what influenced it. i just dig it.In most cases it's like that. But i'm, talking as a head not someone who wants to build a Mzansi industry.

[the panic!]

While I do not subscribe to the whole, "everything must sound Mzansi original", I applaud Bongz for making those Hip Hop Mbaqanga beats. That is unique.

yeah, cats just won't give it to the dude, no matter what. i can't call it. anyone heard the new Jozi?

[RearrangedReality]

While I do not subscribe to the whole, "everything must sound Mzansi original", I applaud Bongz for making those Hip Hop Mbaqanga beats. That is unique.

just thought i'd mention that POC's did the same back then when they were still active.

[the panic!]

While I do not subscribe to the whole, "everything must sound Mzansi original", I applaud Bongz for making those Hip Hop Mbaqanga beats. That is unique.

just thought i'd mention that POC's did the same back then when they were still active.

makes sense since Bongz and Ish usually go 50/50 on Jozi's production.

[RearrangedReality]

While I do not subscribe to the whole, "everything must sound Mzansi original", I applaud Bongz for making those Hip Hop Mbaqanga beats. That is unique.

just thought i'd mention that POC's did the same back then when they were still active.

makes sense since Bongz and Ish usually go 50/50 on Jozi's production.

I also thought i might have something to do with Ish

[Dpleezy]

Great post Gemini,

I don't think Jozi is the answer - it's not just about taking the latest international trends and slapping some traditional music on it. That's just a safe commercial gimmick (the way Jozi does it at least).

Where are the artists experimenting with new sounds? We have many dope producers who can make beats that sound as good as their international counterparts, but very few (if any) who can stand apart from the crowd, having created their own sound.

It shows a lack of musical maturity to simply aim at getting to the same level as the rest of the world. Very few people seem to be playing with different genres for the sake of music, rather than to try to capture a markets. South African producers seem to be obsessed with trying to make money rather than trying to make music. I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't make for a very creative environment.

I met up with a Swiss group called Filewile the other day - the way they play with different genres was really inspiring - they see themselves as musicians rather than tying themselves to any genre. They have worked with some impressive people including Sizzla and Roots Manuva. We'll be working with them soon.

Rapping in vernac doesn't make our hip hop any more interesting if the beats are just following international trends. When you listen to who's 'hot' in SA hip hop, the music is all extremely generic and pop.

All this applies to me as much as anyone else - I'm hoping to address a lot of these issues with some projects I have been working on for next year - these will definitely widen my musical horizons.

[MrC The Rap God Almighty]

Let's remain MC's people. All this i'm a musician shit is what's wrong with music nowadays. We all try too much to be the next thing and are not even really creating anything unique.

Stick with the Basics. You shall Prosper.

[the panic!]

Zuluboy's Inqolobane is a good example of a hip hop album that's distinctly South African and original - in sound and content.

the cat said so himself that he wants it such that when he performs overseas, even when he doesn't rap, people can get the feel that what they're hearing is different from what they're used to - that it sounds South African, basically.

personally, i think homeboy and the producers weren't too far off on that joint. maskandi-hop.

[Dpleezy]

Let's remain MC's people. All this i'm a musician shit is what's wrong with music nowadays. We all try too much to be the next thing and are not even really creating anything unique.

Stick with the Basics. You shall Prosper.

What about those of us that aren't MCs?

Personally, I believe it's all this 'I'm an MC' shit that's making the music stale. Most SA hip hop falls into 2 categories: 'Pop' and 'Living in the Past'. This is not healthy for any genre of music.  

There's nothing wrong with sticking with what you know, but life moves on. It's exciting and energising to be part creating new things but it's not for everyone.

[the panic!]

shit, Izithunywa Zohlanga.

who can even touch Leo?

i'd also put Tuks' and HHP's latest albums out there, but most would consider those more rap than Hip Hop, for some reason, so i'll leave that be.

my point is there isn't a vacuum, exactly.

[watziznehmegin]

Wanted to throw an example from Poland out there, these guys are called 'Skalpel', and mostly sample Polish Jazz records, they are signed to Ninja Tune, and make some really fresh stuff from a Polish stand point, Tribe Called Quest and so forth have already sampled some jewels from out there...



overall when I listen to South African music, I feel it has a somewhat distinct vibe, weather it's Groundworks, Markus Wormstorm, Sibot, 340ml, P.O.C., Ben Sharpa, Zubz, Tumi & The Volume, they all give it their personal touch, I feel South Africa is so culturally diverse, and that artists there do tap into their environment, I feel a distinction can be made from the stuff stemming from the Cape Flats, the stuff coming from PTA, or the Zulu stuff I have heard from Durban. The Afrikaans stuff, the Spaza sound, the Zimbabwean, Lesotho, Mozambique expatriots I feel bring a a distinct vibe exclusive to their cultural heritage, and all these influences is what really makes S.A. stand out for me. I am not really exposed to the let's get rich quick side of things, rather what I am drawn towards, or maybe what reaches my shores are the people who are really pushing the art forward, making good music I can feel.

[MrC The Rap God Almighty]

Totally co-sign what Watz is saying. There's so much diversity in this country, most of it MAD ORIGINAL, that i fail to really see the relevance of this thread. Are we saying we should create an original sound and all conform to it ? Well then pick a sound and get a petition going so we can all subscriber to it.Like it's been said, Zuluboy's sound is mad original , Pro-kid is now mixing "kwaito" cla**ics with hip-hop, HHP and Tuks sound mad original to me, TUMI,etc,etc,so where's the problem ? Is it cos they are not doing the kinda music WE like, or what WE think should be an "original sound" that we dismiss them ? hmmmm.


And yes, these are MC's , but they dictate to their producers how they wanna come through,so for me , that's mad originality on both the MC's and producer's part.

Personally, I believe it's all this 'I'm an MC' shit that's making the music stale.
 

So being an MC is what's dragging hip-hop down ? Sort of like someone saying I'm a guitarist, would that be making Rock n Roll stale right ? Should we just throw out the basics of what defines us as a music genre in favor of innovation ? And still call it hip-hop ? U know what they say about a house without a foundation.

I read the latest Hype and came across 3 articles (including JR) where people are on some "i've moved past hip-hop, im trying to be a musician,bla,bla".

Go ahead folks. Be musicians. It's like being a hip-hop artist, your not a musician in the first place. So dude's wanna be a Gary Burton, or a Chick Corea or a Miles Davis all of a sudden. Good for you man. Just don't label it hip-hop cos it aint. It's just a little figment of your imagination thinking u the next big thing in the world of music.

Thing is these cats haven't even conquered the "hip-hop market" yet. It's exactly that failure that makes them want move into other forms of music, thinking they gonna get their shine that way. BIG BIG FAIL.

I really liked what K'naan said in his HYPE interview. He doesn't go into Studio thinking "i have to incorporate African sounds into my music". It's just comes to him. It's in him. It's who he is. That's being a musician. Music is not thought out and strategized, it comes from the soul. So do you.

And all this talk of "people living in the past" is really getting old. Nobody accuses other cats who like Electro and incorporate it into their music of that, even when that influence is clearly outta Planet Rock. Who cares ? As long as it sounds good.

OB4CL was probably the dopest album this year and it could have come out in the 90's and still got major props. Good music is good music, period.

Hate to make these examples cos they aint really mu cup of tea, but Mafikizolo took that old Sophia Town sound and people loved it. Kwela Tebza did the same thing. Lots of cats still make that "vocal house music" and people still love it. Jimmy Dludlu still does his "Gerge Benson Impersonations" and still highly successful. Kalawa can still make that 90's sounding Kwaito with Trompies and people still go nuts.

[Dpleezy]

I don't think 'most' hip hop in SA is mad original at all - a lot of it is mad derivative. Naturally there is a small core of very talented artists (and there are some quite good clones of US artists), but it's hard to pick out more than a handful of artists who you can look at and say that they are doing something unique - which is what this thread is about.

We don't have artists making cla**ic hip hop album like OB4CL2 because we're too busy trying to sound like Raekwon or Nas or Fabolous or etc etc. I'm not just taking shots at Golden Era artists either - our hip pop is actually much worse in terms of being derivative. Like I said, we pat ourselves on the back when we manage to make it to international standard - we get all ga**ed up when someone can do a good Akon / T-Pain autotune imitation like it's some sort of great accomplishment.

I'm hip hop to the death. I've been actively involved in hip hop for 24 years and I still love it today as much as I ever did. It's not about moving past hip hop, but if you don't move forwards things get stale. Some people like listening to cla**ical music 300 years after it was big - and there's nothing wrong with that - but this thread is about originality. I think it's a very valid topic of discussion to ask who are the innovators creating something unique to SA.

I'm not saying that 'being an MC' is dragging hip hop down, it's the closed-minded, compartmentalised, narrow-minded way of thinking that's holding us back because that way of thinking is the enemy of creativity. When cats like JR talk about 'moving beyond hip hop', they just mean that they are crossing over to pop music because they want to sell. This is not what I'm talking about.

Music is music and no one can tell you what is right or wrong - if you like country music or heavy metal, that's your choice - but this thread is about originality in SA hip hop. There's really no need to be so defensive about the subject matter. It's no coincidence that the greatest artists in the history of music are generally also innovators. Of course music should come from the soul, but if you're involved in making music, you should also have a philosophy of what you're trying to achieve.