Get Dropox | Luno Bitcoin | Ovex Crypto | Binance | Get Free Crypto - Morpher
Africasgateway.com

Victims No More

Guest · 41 · 14473

DarkBlood

  • Guest
Damn this trap!!! where the enemy has made us dependent on its existence hence making sure we never get rid of it by waving Zim in our faces everytime we try... >:(

Now let me actually THINK of a less emotional response to your warning. It might take some time.  ;)

I can't wait to hear it  ;)

To clarify, my point about Zimbabwe was pointed at the eventual tyranny that enveloped in the nation. Shit became serious there and people ended up divided instead of united for a shit long time.

Whether we like it or not, white people are our brothers in humanity as much as we are, coloureds, Indians and Asians. Purging them from the country I disagree with but displacing those among them holding us down from the high horse they believe they occupy I am with.

I just want equality and freedom for my people and aspire to do it by flying, not cutting white people down at the knees.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 10:13:11 AM by Primal Productions »


the panic!

  • AG Elite Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1805
    • REP: +26/-28
    • View Profile
i see what you mean re: the few. but what im saying is that the two are not mutually exclusive. especially re: the black youth which, in my view, should not identify itself as apart. we are after all the ones poised to inherit the country. you talk about "some changes". that leads me to believe that you dont propose an overhaul of capitalism. therefore does it not make sense then to a**imilate marginalized black people, especially youth, into society while concurrently conscientizing the larger ma** into a reclamation of the country - since its functions wont be entirely altered? or do you think that this will be seen as an end in itself and breed complacency? if all of us can use our skills, money and agency to empower a hundred black young people, while working towards establishing independent black establishments of our own, would that not work concurrently with the goals we have when conscientizing the black ma**es? or do you propose that we do nothing outside of conscientizing? that we wait, seated in comfort and dependency, for the black poor to initiate an insurgence? how long will that take? what about what we can do now? and also, just as a matter of interest, provided the country will still be capitalist, what will be the role of the present black middle cla** after the insurgence? im not against your thinking. my proposition does not exclude it. the difference is only that while limited in effect, as far as the greater scheme is concerned, it is quicker in producing results. we are already middle cla** - outside of my propisition i can only see that fact benefiting ourselves and, to a larger degree, white dominion. today we work within the system, while the poor suffer, and tomorrow we will do the same. so why not make the most of what were capable of now? this isnt even political - its simply identifying the suffering of your own and deploying means, within your immediate capabilities, to do something about the suffering. it shouldnt even feel like a choice . . . . .at Ezekiel if capitalism isnt going away, what do you propose people do?


Sosiba

  • AG Regular
  • ****
    • Posts: 257
    • REP: +4/-3
    • Gender:Male
  • Madzikane kaZulu.
    • View Profile
i see what you mean re: the few. but what im saying is that the two are not mutually exclusive. especially re: the black youth which, in my view, should not identify itself as apart. we are after all the ones poised to inherit the country. you talk about "some changes". that leads me to believe that you dont propose an overhaul of capitalism. therefore does it not make sense then to a**imilate marginalized black people, especially youth, into society while concurrently conscientizing the larger ma** into a reclamation of the country - since its functions wont be entirely altered? or do you think that this will be seen as an end in itself and breed complacency? if all of us can use our skills, money and agency to empower a hundred black young people, while working towards establishing independent black establishments of our own, would that not work concurrently with the goals we have when conscientizing the black ma**es? or do you propose that we do nothing outside of conscientizing? that we wait, seated in comfort and dependency, for the black poor to initiate an insurgence? how long will that take? what about what we can do now? and also, just as a matter of interest, provided the country will still be capitalist, what will be the role of the present black middle cla** after the insurgence? im not against your thinking. my proposition does not exclude it. the difference is only that while limited in effect, as far as the greater scheme is concerned, it is quicker in producing results. we are already middle cla** - outside of my propisition i can only see that fact benefiting ourselves and, to a larger degree, white dominion. today we work within the system, while the poor suffer, and tomorrow we will do the same. so why not make the most of what were capable of now? this isnt even political - its simply identifying the suffering of your own and deploying means, within your immediate capabilities, to do something about the suffering. it shouldnt even feel like a choice . . . . .at Ezekiel if capitalism isnt going away, what do you propose people do?

It seems the only real difference between us is that you speak of the interim and I of the long term but though I cannot as of now bring an argument to counter your interim proposition Im worried, will it not hinder the long term solution by making us (through our vested interests in it) to see it as an end in itself and thus protect it.

What Im sure of is that I stand  for an all Blacks Afrika with all settlers gone.

As for me speaking of "some changes" and hence implying that Im not for a complete overhaul of capitalism. The Answer to that (also to Ezekiel) is that though capitalism is known for the biggest inequalities, the other extreme, communism is not really famous for effeciency and success so Im for a solution in between the two which in all honestly Im still to really look into.

As for the role of the Black middle cla** after the insurgence, I believe they will be very key in how the country moves after that. But I think with the ma**es now conscientized and having taken over themselves it will be trully the ma**es will that will rule with them (the Black middle cla**) involved in the implementing.


"Why was the worker shot? Because he protested... Why was the negro shot? Because he was there. This is the gratuitous (without cause) violence against Black people that so called pure marxist can't comprehend" Frank Wilderson.


Sosiba

  • AG Regular
  • ****
    • Posts: 257
    • REP: +4/-3
    • Gender:Male
  • Madzikane kaZulu.
    • View Profile
The only role (a minor group within) the Black middle cla** can play is to conscientize the Black ma**es and ignite a overthrow of the system by the Black ma**es.

Never a truer word spoken.
I've been saying this for a while. I remember another thread where Panic and I also debated the merits of this trickle-down economic theory, where middle cla** black people have to bear the responsibility of uplifting those with less.
The problem is by uplifting those within the confines of the system, you threaten your own place within it.


What were you called before Sosiba?

Oh ya, I first called myself Don Kalimeshe then Made man which was a flaw in sequential logic. ;D
"Why was the worker shot? Because he protested... Why was the negro shot? Because he was there. This is the gratuitous (without cause) violence against Black people that so called pure marxist can't comprehend" Frank Wilderson.


Papa ThReAdS

  • Are you a bish?? Then you can love me.
  • AG Elite Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 2046
    • REP: +24/-31
    • Gender:Male
  • The beautiful man...The beautiful Legend...
    • View Profile
I still aint reading all of this!
Beating bitches since 1982.


LetsogoLaPlastik

  • AG Regular
  • ****
    • Posts: 431
    • REP: +4/-8
    • Gender:Male
  • Wa tlala??
    • View Profile
I still aint reading all of this!

 ;D ;D same here nigga......Im not going through any of the essays either........must say I feel guilty cos most of the ppl here are bigg_Upp_ing the content........almost gave in, but nope Im sorry!!! too long for me.....Im here to relax not to read essays yesses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ha o mpona oska.....nkatumela!!!!


Papa ThReAdS

  • Are you a bish?? Then you can love me.
  • AG Elite Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 2046
    • REP: +24/-31
    • Gender:Male
  • The beautiful man...The beautiful Legend...
    • View Profile
I still aint reading all of this!

 ;D ;D same here nigga......Im not going through any of the essays either........must say I feel guilty cos most of the ppl here are bigg_Upp_ing the content........almost gave in, but nope Im sorry!!! too long for me.....Im here to relax not to read essays yesses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody gets on the internet to read nigga! These niggas could have at least upped a picture of a titty to incentivise us reading this shit, but they gave us nothing! Nothing dawg!
Beating bitches since 1982.


Blizzard

  • AG Elite Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1516
    • REP: +16/-17
    • Gender:Male
    • View Profile

As for me speaking of "some changes" and hence implying that Im not for a complete overhaul of capitalism. The Answer to that (also to Ezekiel) is that though capitalism is known for the biggest inequalities, the other extreme, communism is not really famous for effeciency and success so Im for a solution in between the two which in all honestly Im still to really look into.

Broer, it doesn't matter what i call it, all i want is a situation where instead of people selling their labour for survival, they add value to their lives by producing goods that are gonna benefit them, a system where i dont invest time, energy, effort and money in my children to be efficient slaves, whilst making someone else rich. A system where people in my community grow food to feed everyone, where no one goes to bed hungry. a situation where education is for everyone and acquiring a university degree doesn't mean that you can sell your labour at a higher price than someone who doesn't. I want all the factories in my hood to be re-opened and produce furniture, clothes etc for everyone...not only for those who can afford. Sound too simplistic huh?

This is a long-term goal but at the moment we need to identify what we have. Trade unions would play a big role in this. And here im not talking about trade union leadership but the workers themselves, they are biggest working cla** organization we have at the moment. they are big in terms of numbers and resources.Trade unions have research institutes that have produced lots of material on alternatives to capitalism/globalisation.
So we need to get trade unions to stop seeing members in a narrow perspective. Workers are part of the community, so instead of those garbage-tossing SAMWU members demanding higher wages, they should for example make demands for speedy service delivery and teacher's union for example would demand free quality education for all. They could do all of this by running small community based campaigns like all the schools should have functioning school libraries.

Can you imagine the kind of support they would get from the communities!!! So they should do away with only workplace demands and make it about the community. This is how we fought apartheid, we saw it as a system that affects us in all areas of our lives, both at work and in our community. 

i consider myself middle cla** and according to my neighborhood standards my family is middle cla**, my father saved enough money from his salary to at least pay university registration fee, which was about 15K at the time, (2000). but i know a lot of people and family members (cousins from both side of the family) who deserved more than me to go to varsity, but because they were not as privileged as i was, never got the chance.  i also know a lot of kids who went to the former model C schools because they could afford to pay about 10K a year.


DarkBlood

  • Guest

Broer, it doesn't matter what i call it, all i want is a situation where instead of people selling their labour for survival, they add value to their lives by producing goods that are gonna benefit them, a system where i dont invest time, energy, effort and money in my children to be efficient slaves, whilst making someone else rich. A system where people in my community grow food to feed everyone, where no one goes to bed hungry. a situation where education is for everyone and acquiring a university degree doesn't mean that you can sell your labour at a higher price than someone who doesn't. I want all the factories in my hood to be re-opened and produce furniture, clothes etc for everyone...not only for those who can afford. Sound too simplistic huh?

This is a long-term goal but at the moment we need to identify what we have. Trade unions would play a big role in this. And here im not talking about trade union leadership but the workers themselves, they are biggest working cla** organization we have at the moment. they are big in terms of numbers and resources.Trade unions have research institutes that have produced lots of material on alternatives to capitalism/globalisation.
So we need to get trade unions to stop seeing members in a narrow perspective. Workers are part of the community, so instead of those garbage-tossing SAMWU members demanding higher wages, they should for example make demands for speedy service delivery and teacher's union for example would demand free quality education for all. They could do all of this by running small community based campaigns like all the schools should have functioning school libraries.

Can you imagine the kind of support they would get from the communities!!! So they should do away with only workplace demands and make it about the community. This is how we fought apartheid, we saw it as a system that affects us in all areas of our lives, both at work and in our community. 

i consider myself middle cla** and according to my neighborhood standards my family is middle cla**, my father saved enough money from his salary to at least pay university registration fee, which was about 15K at the time, (2000). but i know a lot of people and family members (cousins from both side of the family) who deserved more than me to go to varsity, but because they were not as privileged as i was, never got the chance.  i also know a lot of kids who went to the former model C schools because they could afford to pay about 10K a year.

The idea you are speaking of is what this guy in the Zeitgeist Movement refers to as a Resource-Based Economy. It completely eradicates the monetary system (capitalism AND communism). If you haven't heard of it or anything check it out on http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/

You can actually download the movie and books and stuff all for free.


the panic!

  • AG Elite Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1805
    • REP: +26/-28
    • View Profile
nice vision. it reminds of something marginally related: how America's attack on communism, via popular culture, was to mainly posit it as a threat to individuality, and also, as a way for 'the lazy' to do nothing while 'the diligent' worked for everyone's well-being. i feel like a lot of South Africans have taken up this sentiment. people actually rely on money, to some extent, to derive a sense of self-worth, and also through the help of advertisers, they buy their identities through brands. not to mention corporate professions. while what you say makes sense, it would take some serious indoctrination. capitalism, at this point, i feel, is more than an economic system, its a way of life - its embedded culturally in people. nice idea re: workers protesting service delivery failures. that would move things along, i think.


DarkBlood

  • Guest
nice vision. it reminds of something marginally related: how America's attack on communism, via popular culture, was to mainly posit it as a threat to individuality, and also, as a way for 'the lazy' to do nothing while 'the diligent' worked for everyone's well-being. i feel like a lot of South Africans have taken up this sentiment. people actually rely on money, to some extent, to derive a sense of self-worth, and also through the help of advertisers, they buy their identities through brands. not to mention corporate professions. while what you say makes sense, it would take some serious indoctrination. capitalism, at this point, i feel, is more than an economic system, its a way of life - its embedded culturally in people. nice idea re: workers protesting service delivery failures. that would move things along, i think.

And here I thought I was the only one who noticed the American genius. I have been saying for a few years now:

'The greatest trick the Americans ever pulled was convincing people that the opposite of socialism was democracy.'

The opposite of democracy is actually totalitarianism/ fascism. Socialism - like capitalism - is a MONETARY system and not a political system.

If you look back historically at African people, we were very communal by nature. There was a village and everyone in the village contrinuted and took care of the village as a whole. Everyone in the community was valued. In fact, you still see a lot of this kind of nature in the townships - ko Alexander, Soweto and Gugs to name a few. Look at the very nature of a stokvel. The community contributed into the basket of money and when a need in the community arose - like a member facing a death and having to arrange for the funeral - the stokvel was used. No beef, no people wondering 'When is it MY turn?' This kind of thinking was so foreign if you introduced it to a TRUE community like that the people in that community would look at you like you're crazy.

Everybody knows everybody on that street in the township or at least in that 2km radius. Doors are wide open during the day until maybe the evening when it's time to sleep, gates unlocked and alarm systems are a rarity. Dogs are there but they're mostly for show. There's a sense of community there - people look out for each other somehow. Everyone knows uGogo lo and uMama that. The scary part is that this is the DILUTED sense of community - ubuntu - that I am talking about. The one that prevailed in history before we lost our identity, our culture, our sense of who we are was so engraved into us that the western thinking of 'this is mine and that is yours' was so absurd it was inconceivable.

Read the ancient African history books - the concept of land ownership was ridiculous. That's why the Blacks clashed with the Boers in the early days of colonisation because to the Blacks you couldn't own land - it belonged to the earth. They grazed cattle freely and to the Boers - with their western culture - this was trespa**ing.

To speak of that communal culture of Black people is so quickly called Communism and as soon as you do that - people immediately think 'Stalin' and dictatorship - tyranny - that people run away from it. You are spot on the money Panic - it was a great marketing stunt by the Americans and since our universities teach from their text books and our business schools teach from their models our 'educated' and 'skilled' population has heavily adopted their culture on that matter - hence capitalism is engraved in them (us?) and anything slightly resembling socialism is stomped to death.

This is why I re-iterate. We won't see success if we keep trying to attain why they call success and keep doing what they do to attain it. I firmly believe that deep down inside, every black person just - on a gut level - does not buy into this HEAVY 'free-market, no welfare' capitalism because it is not in our culture. It's not a matter of it being right or wrong - it's a question of it being compatible or incompatible with our cultural fabric.

African people are used to taking care of our own and pulling our own weight, we're just losing it in exchange for this 'new' model which we KNOW is not ours but we thing is the only way. After all, it worked for them, why won't it work for us?