Gareth Cliff's Letter

[Sosiba]

Selective qouting (isnt that wat qouting is anyway?) I know but this:

"There is a lot wrong with this whole situation and us adding unnecessary and divisive aspects like race into it, only harms our own cause."

Divisive aspects like race? What are we united by that we maybe divided by race? And who does your use of "our" in "our cause" take along, considering that you've said race is divisive? is our cause one for all races?

[K'niep Tang]

Check this response to Andile Mngxitama (The M&G dude)'s column:

"You wrote on the Mail And Guardian that Gareth Cliff is the poster boy of post 1994 racism and some other trite crap. You proclaim that his letter to the government leads you to think most South Africans cannot decode white supremacism.  In fact you have just proved what a moron you are.

Gareth Cliffs letter to the government is written by a South African who happens to be white. His plea is not just for whites to be advantaged, nor is it a reactionary ode to the past. It speaks directly to the failures of the Government that our people voted for."

Read more here: http://guymclaren.com/dear-andile/

[sero147]

Do you think there would have been a difference response if it was Fresh who wrote the letter? Or any other black celebrity with the reach and youth support of Cliff?

We have to ask ourselves if it is because he is white, or because he is famous.

Then again, why should it make a difference if someone is famous? Why treat a spoilt overhyped talking head better than you treat your voting, tax-paying public?

There is a lot wrong with this whole situation and us adding unnecessary and divisive aspects like race into it, only harms our own cause. Instead all South africans should be doing the same as Cliff and threatening to let hell break loose if we don't get the same special treatment and our concerns aren't adressed.

we cannot run away from the fact that everything in south africa will eventually be a race issue... if it was fresh he would have been called a " bloody agent" advancing the agenda of his white paymasters ( 5FM caters for the white market)

[RearrangedReality]

Check this response to Andile Mngxitama (The M&G dude)'s column:

"You wrote on the Mail And Guardian that Gareth Cliff is the poster boy of post 1994 racism and some other trite crap. You proclaim that his letter to the government leads you to think most South Africans cannot decode white supremacism.  In fact you have just proved what a moron you are.

Gareth Cliffs letter to the government is written by a South African who happens to be white. His plea is not just for whites to be advantaged, nor is it a reactionary ode to the past. It speaks directly to the failures of the Government that our people voted for."

Read more here: http://guymclaren.com/dear-andile/

funny how "white" racist talk like their concern is for the majority but give themselves away and people just dont pick it up.

I hope your BEE deals have enriched you well because sooner or later the South African people will see through your crap and boy then you are gonna need big bucks to find asylum

[K'niep Tang]

Do you think there would have been a difference response if it was Fresh who wrote the letter? Or any other black celebrity with the reach and youth support of Cliff?

We have to ask ourselves if it is because he is white, or because he is famous.

Then again, why should it make a difference if someone is famous? Why treat a spoilt overhyped talking head better than you treat your voting, tax-paying public?

There is a lot wrong with this whole situation and us adding unnecessary and divisive aspects like race into it, only harms our own cause. Instead all South africans should be doing the same as Cliff and threatening to let hell break loose if we don't get the same special treatment and our concerns aren't adressed.

we cannot run away from the fact that everything in south africa will eventually be a race issue... if it was fresh he would have been called a " bloody agent" advancing the agenda of his white paymasters ( 5FM caters for the white market)

Shu Nuff, but are we going to bring it up at every turn? Are we so stuck in our ways that we can't separate the real issues from the bullshit prejudice we perpetrate our selves? Is the victim mentality so deeply instilled that we can't even acknowledge it when a white guy raises critical points which apply to all of us? It's messed up that guvment chose to listen to Cliff and let other people's cries fall by the way side but it is what it is. Point is dude raised valid points and here's an idiot with a platform trying to shred Cliff's gripes to pieces and labelling them white supremacy. f***outtahere. If that letter get's anything done by the government then props to Cliff. Will you be upset if they fix your street lamps as a result of Gareth's efforts?

[RearrangedReality]

I'm sure Helen Zille raises valid issues too from time to time but that doesn't mean that she has our interest at heart.

[The Angry Hand of God]

Divisive aspects like race? What are we united by that we maybe divided by race? And who does your use of "our" in "our cause" take along, considering that you've said race is divisive? is our cause one for all races?

You ask what we are united by.

Well, would you say we are all united by the lack of service delivery and suffering due to the rampant self-enrichment at the expense of the poor? This isn't a black or white thing.

I live in a white hood, where the trash has been piling up in the streets for the past three weeks and hasn't been collected. We often don't have water, because of infrastructure decay.

When I go to the hood I grew up in, I see the same problems. No white folk there. Are they allowed to complain, but us and our white neighbours aren't?

Dealing with issues such as these is a cause for all races.

I wrote a story last week, about kids in kids literally dying of hunger in Naledi municipality in the Free State.
http://www.volksblad.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Kinders-sterf-van-honger-in-Naledi-owerheid-wis-nie-daarvan-20101030

There are white people living in the township there, trying to feed these kids. Should we disregard their pleas for government help, because they are white?

You would be shocked if I were to post some of the pics I took there. Little kids who look like they live in a Ethiopian refugee camp, rather than a town less than 100 km from Bloem.

Then we sit here and talk about race as if it matters. And we blast someone for saying something when there are people out there buying R1 million cars, instead of food for the poor.

f*** anyone who thinks this makes sense and tries to justify it.

[the panic!]

in my experience, most of the people directly affected would agree with Mngxitama. they are just that much more adept at reading both sides.

the problem about this cat is that he takes highly developed race theory and tries to condense it into layman's terms in order to deal with economic and political issues. if you study race theory or read widely in black radical thought, incorporating theories in philology and ontology, you'll understand what he means about "unconscious white supremacy"--and you'll see how he's right, for the most part.

that, or just be poor and in constant mercy of white people.

[General Ratzinger van Stilzkin]

in my experience, most of the people directly affected would agree with Mngxitama. they are just that much more adept at reading both sides.

the problem about this cat is that he takes highly developed race theory and tries to condense it into layman's terms in order to deal with economic and political issues. if you study race theory or read widely in black radical thought, incorporating theories in philology and ontology, you'll understand what he means about "unconscious white supremacy"--and you'll see how he's right, for the most part.

that, or just be poor and in constant mercy of white people.

Pyro, i hear what u are saying, but race issues are very very complex. very complex,  i still need to internalize the psyche behind Cliff's letter, however as much as i feel that he has some valid points i also can some what empathize where this andile cat is from how? it could be as a result of the very same complex issues of race that i speak of.

common sense will not prevail for a long time to come when it comes to race relations in this country and thats something we need to deal with, its a by product of our past.  i feel

[sero147]

i would like to think that this is not about race, but sadly it is, for how long have the people in the community you are talking about been complaining about their situation and nothing has been done, at least a visit from the presidents office to see the situation first hand? and we have a white boy with everything that the new SA has to offer, being rolled out the red carpet and having duck in sandton city with the ANC. What i took out  Andile's article is that the ANC was quick to listen to grieviances of a priviledged South African ( read as white) and does nothing for the people who vote for them ( read as black), if one cannot see the see this as a problem and go on about people being quick to use the race card, when it is obvious that is what it is... How many people have complained about service delivery and all you get is a bloated Julius Malema handing out food parcels? I guess Gareth also got his food parcel

[K'niep Tang]

i would like to think that this is not about race, but sadly it is, for how long have the people in the community you are talking about been complaining about their situation and nothing has been done, at least a visit from the presidents office to see the situation first hand? and we have a white boy with everything that the new SA has to offer, being rolled out the red carpet and having duck in sandton city with the ANC. What i took out  Andile's article is that the ANC was quick to listen to grieviances of a priviledged South African ( read as white) and does nothing for the people who vote for them ( read as black), if one cannot see the see this as a problem and go on about people being quick to use the race card, when it is obvious that is what it is... How many people have complained about service delivery and all you get is a bloated Julius Malema handing out food parcels? I guess Gareth also got his food parcel

@sero147 I hear you, and I agree that this is a problem but who in this case is in the wrong? Is it Gareth's fault that he managed to get more than a shrug? Or is it the government that we (using this word very loosely right now) voted in? I haven't analysed all the racial undertones and shit that may be littered all over the letter coz quiet frankly I don't see everything in black and white (sue me), but the point is the government, which consists of a majority blacks, listened to him. You can't blame Gareth for that.

[guymclaren]

Check this response to Andile Mngxitama (The M&G dude)'s column:

"You wrote on the Mail And Guardian that Gareth Cliff is the poster boy of post 1994 racism and some other trite crap. You proclaim that his letter to the government leads you to think most South Africans cannot decode white supremacism.  In fact you have just proved what a moron you are.

Gareth Cliffs letter to the government is written by a South African who happens to be white. His plea is not just for whites to be advantaged, nor is it a reactionary ode to the past. It speaks directly to the failures of the Government that our people voted for."

Read more here: http://guymclaren.com/dear-andile/

funny how "white" racist talk like their concern is for the majority but give themselves away and people just dont pick it up.

I hope your BEE deals have enriched you well because sooner or later the South African people will see through your crap and boy then you are gonna need big bucks to find asylum

Funny how stupid bigots see racism where there is none. Funny how the South African people will lose the blinkers and chase them into the sea.  The division caused by fools and fearmongers will not heal this land.

I a**umed that Andile is a tenderpreneur hence my wish thjat his BEE deals have enriched him sufficiently that he can find asylum when the people get gatvol of hatred and stupidity. That day will come.

I proudly do not need to care for others, I have a pretty good life without tenders, without the need to cheat, rob and steal from others. I also have no need to spread dissension amongst the people of this land, people like you and Andile cause enough for three continents.

My skills are available where they are needed, just don't ask for a bribe.

[RearrangedReality]

Check this response to Andile Mngxitama (The M&G dude)'s column:

"You wrote on the Mail And Guardian that Gareth Cliff is the poster boy of post 1994 racism and some other trite crap. You proclaim that his letter to the government leads you to think most South Africans cannot decode white supremacism.  In fact you have just proved what a moron you are.

Gareth Cliffs letter to the government is written by a South African who happens to be white. His plea is not just for whites to be advantaged, nor is it a reactionary ode to the past. It speaks directly to the failures of the Government that our people voted for."

Read more here: http://guymclaren.com/dear-andile/

funny how "white" racist talk like their concern is for the majority but give themselves away and people just dont pick it up.

I hope your BEE deals have enriched you well because sooner or later the South African people will see through your crap and boy then you are gonna need big bucks to find asylum

Funny how stupid bigots see racism where there is none. Funny how the South African people will lose the blinkers and chase them into the sea.  The division caused by fools and fearmongers will not heal this land.

I a**umed that Andile is a tenderpreneur hence my wish thjat his BEE deals have enriched him sufficiently that he can find asylum when the people get gatvol of hatred and stupidity. That day will come.

I proudly do not need to care for others, I have a pretty good life without tenders, without the need to cheat, rob and steal from others. I also have no need to spread dissension amongst the people of this land, people like you and Andile cause enough for three continents.

My skills are available where they are needed, just don't ask for a bribe.

*yawn*

[Anna Sasin]

I'm so glad for all the differing opinions here.
Opens up the possibilities.

I've realised though, that black people over time will forget everything they went through and begin to be distant from it, romanticise it (begin to make flippant comparisons to apartheid O.o) and become entangled in more sophisticated ways. Racism today is hardly ever overt, its hard to pin-point and therefore hard to confront because it can be clothed in many 'indignant' ways.

But I trust my 1st instincts. I'm paranoid. I don't believe every white person is a racist (a lot aren't) but I believe there is a system of global white supremacy which seeks to preserve itself by ever-subtle means (which white people individually benefit from). A privilege many fear even owning up to. And I think people like me are needed in the midst of this discourse. There will be plenty to balance us out.

We're crazy, overly-sensitive, perpetual-victims, full of rage. Whatever. We're necessary in reminding folk when the rope gets too short and they begin to hang themselves, because we never lose context for conformity. Till then situations like this letter are shallow jabs, I don't believe Gareth is conscious of his racism as viewed from my tainted perspective. But his comments serve a larger purpose, however unintended, in maintaining a certain social order.

As you were.
What's AG without a race discussion?

[Bashin]

Why r we always bitchin about racism..is it really important?are we that desperate to have white folk invite us over to their parties n learning to pronounce our names proper that we'd neglect issues like poverty thats literally killin people out there and waste our energy bitchin about unity ? Government will never see the need to step up their service-delivery game but instead they'll be wastin time tryna fight racism than tryina improve black people's lives..