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Hip Hop Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tonnes on October 20, 2010, 03:29:39 PM
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Dear Government
OK, I get it, the President isn't the only one in charge. The ANC believes in "collective responsibility" (So that nobody has to get blamed when things get screwed up), so I address this to everyone in government - the whole lot of you - good, bad and ugly (That's you, Blade).
We were all so pleased with your renewed promises to deliver services (we'll forgive the fact that in some places people are worse off than in 1994); to root out corruption (so far your record is worse than under Mbeki, Mandela or the Apartheid regime - what with family members becoming overnight millionaires); and build infrastructure (State tenders going disgustingly awry and pretty stadia standing empty notwithstanding) - and with the good job you did when FIFA were telling you what to do for a few months this year. Give yourselves half a pat on the back. Since President Sepp went off with his billions I'm afraid we have less to be proud of - Public Servants Strikes, more Presidential bastard children, increasing unemployment and a lack of leadership that allowed the Unions to make the elected government it's bitch. You should be more than a little worried - but you're not. Hence my letter. Here are some things that might have pa**ed you by:
1. You have to stop corruption. Don't stop it because rich people moan about it and because it makes poor people feel that you are self-enriching parasites of state resources, but because it is a disease that will kill us all. It's simple - there is only so much money left to be plundered. When that money runs out, the plunderers will raise taxes, chase and drain all the remaining cash out of the country and be left with nothing but the rotting remains of what could have been the greatest success story of post-colonial Africa. It's called corruption because it decomposes the fabric of society. When someone is found guilty of corruption, don't go near them - it's catchy. Making yourself rich at the country's expense is what colonialists do.
2. Stop complaining about the media. You're only complaining about them because they show you up for how little you really do or care. If you were trying really hard, and you didn't drive the most expensive car in the land, or have a nephew who suddenly went from modesty to ostentatious opulence, we'd have only positive things to report. Think of Jay Naidoo, Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi and Zwelinzima Vavi - they come under a lot of fire, but it's never embarra**ing - always about their ideas, their positions, and is perfectly acceptable criticism for people in power to put up with. When the media go after Blade Nzimande, Siphiwe Nyanda and the President, they say we need a new piece of legislation to "make the media responsible". That's because they're being humiliated by the facts we uncover about them daily, not because there is an agenda in some newsroom. If there had been a free press during the reigns of Henry VIII, Idi Amin or Hitler, their regimes might just have been kept a little less destructive, and certainly would have been less brazen and unchecked.
3. Education is a disaster. We're the least literate and numerate country in Africa. Zimbabwe produces better school results and turns out smarter kids than we do. Our youth aren't usemployed, they're unemployable. Outcomes-based-education, Teachers' Unions and an attitude of mediocrity that discourages excellence have reduced us to a laughing stock. Our learners can't spell, read, add or subtract. What are all these people going to do? Become President? There's only one job like that. We need clever people, not average or stupid ones. the failure of the Education Department happened under your watch. Someone who writes Matric now hadn't even started school under the Apartheid regime, so you cannot blame anyone but yourselves for this colossal cock-up. Fix it before three-quarters of our matrics end up begging on Oxford Road. Reward schools and teachers who deliver great pa** rates and clever students into the system. Fire the teachers who march and neglect their cla**rooms.
4. Give up on BEE. It isn't working. Free shares for new black partnerships in old white companies has made everyone poorer except for Tokyo Sexwale. Giving people control of existing business won't make more jobs either. In fact, big companies aren't growing, they're reducing staff and costs. The key is entrepreneurship. People with initiative, creative ideas and small companies must be given tax breaks and a**istance. Young black professionals must be encouraged to start their own businesses rather than join a big corporation's board as their token black shareholder or director. Government must also stop thinking that state employment is a way to decrease unemployment - it isn't - it's a tax burden. India and China are churning out new, brilliant, qualified people at a rate that makes us look like losers. South Africa has a proud history of innovation, pioneering and genius. This is the only way we can advance our society and economy beyond merely coping.
5. Stop squabbling over power. Offices are not there for you to occupy (or be deployed to) and aggrandize yourself. Offices in government are there to provide a service. If you think outrageous salaries, big German cars, first-cla** travel and state housing are the reasons to aspire to leadership, you're in the wrong business - you should be working for a dysfunctional, tumbledown parastatal (or Glenn Agliotti). We don't care who the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces is if we don't have running water, electricity, schools and clean streets. You work for us. Do your job, don't imagine you ARE your job.
6. Stop renaming things. Build new things to name. If I live in a street down which the sewage runs, I don't care if it's called Hans Strijdom or Malibongwe. Calling it something nice and new won't make it smell nice and new. Re-branding is something Cell C do with Trevor Noah, not something you can whitewash your lack of delivery with.
7. Don't think you'll be in power forever. People aren't as stupid as you think we are. We know you sit around laughing about how much you get away with. We'll take you down, either at the polls - or if it comes down to the wire - by revolution (Yes, Julius, the real kind, not the one you imagine happened in 2008). Careless, wasteful and wanton government is a thing of the past. The days of thin propaganda and idealized struggle are over. The people put you in power - they will take you out of it. Africa is tired of tin-pot dictators, one-party states and banana republics. We know who we are now, we care about our future - and so should you.
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mxim
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"I'd rather smoke some proper ganja than listen your propaganda" Tha Hymphatic Thabs
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to hell with these counter revolutionists!!!
amaaaandla!!!!
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(http://a**ets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/10/18/amd_colin_powell.jpg)
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Education is a disaster. We're the least literate and numerate country in Africa. Zimbabwe produces better school results and turns out smarter kids than we do. Our youth aren't usemployed, they're unemployable. Outcomes-based-education, Teachers' Unions and an attitude of mediocrity that discourages excellence have reduced us to a laughing stock. Our learners can't spell, read, add or subtract. What are all these people going to do? Become President? There's only one job like that. We need clever people, not average or stupid ones. the failure of the Education Department happened under your watch. Someone who writes Matric now hadn't even started school under the Apartheid regime, so you cannot blame anyone but yourselves for this colossal cock-up. Fix it before three-quarters of our matrics end up begging on Oxford Road. Reward schools and teachers who deliver great pa** rates and clever students into the system. Fire the teachers who march and neglect their cla**rooms.
chill, bro. i'm finna bring heat to this, real soon. feel me?
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Give up on BEE. It isn't working. Free shares for new black partnerships in old white companies has made everyone poorer except for Tokyo Sexwale. Giving people control of existing business won't make more jobs either. In fact, big companies aren't growing, they're reducing staff and costs. The key is entrepreneurship. People with initiative, creative ideas and small companies must be given tax breaks and a**istance. Young black professionals must be encouraged to start their own businesses rather than join a big corporation's board as their token black shareholder or director. Government must also stop thinking that state employment is a way to decrease unemployment - it isn't - it's a tax burden. India and China are churning out new, brilliant, qualified people at a rate that makes us look like losers. South Africa has a proud history of innovation, pioneering and genius. This is the only way we can advance our society and economy beyond merely coping.
kinda true.
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Give up on BEE. It isn't working. Free shares for new black partnerships in old white companies has made everyone poorer except for Tokyo Sexwale. Giving people control of existing business won't make more jobs either. In fact, big companies aren't growing, they're reducing staff and costs. The key is entrepreneurship. People with initiative, creative ideas and small companies must be given tax breaks and a**istance. Young black professionals must be encouraged to start their own businesses rather than join a big corporation's board as their token black shareholder or director. Government must also stop thinking that state employment is a way to decrease unemployment - it isn't - it's a tax burden. India and China are churning out new, brilliant, qualified people at a rate that makes us look like losers. South Africa has a proud history of innovation, pioneering and genius. This is the only way we can advance our society and economy beyond merely coping.
kinda true.
But the greeks could excel in art and philosophy because they had slaves so the free citizens could spend their time doing that. In the same way, this history of pioneering genius was because white people had Black slaves to do the dirty work so they could "pioneer". But now Mr Cliff wants Black people to continue this pioneering when they have no slaves to do the dirty work like his forefathers did? I sort of agree with him on BEE though but the problem with this encouregement of entreprenuership is that it takes our eyes off the main prize, the real worth, the mines and other big corporations. Crudely, we are told, "find your position small time soldier and let the big boys continue". There's a myth that seems to be going on that white people are derserving hard working onwers of the wealth they have. But this wealth was created thru the inexplicable violence against the Black body. In his book, "African socialism or Socialist Africa" A.M Babu qoutes a very sad poem about the plight of small enterprenuer which I have sadly forgotten. But it made the point that, the monopoly of white capital does not allow much Black entreprenuers.
All in all Mr Cliff, gxebe le nkwenkwe ka Cliff has said nothing new and save for few conventional wisdom, has made flawed arguments, in this paragraph i mean.
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to be fair to him, let me not just pick one paragraph of his letter, i agree with number 7.
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Give up on BEE. It isn't working. Free shares for new black partnerships in old white companies has made everyone poorer except for Tokyo Sexwale. Giving people control of existing business won't make more jobs either. In fact, big companies aren't growing, they're reducing staff and costs. The key is entrepreneurship. People with initiative, creative ideas and small companies must be given tax breaks and a**istance. Young black professionals must be encouraged to start their own businesses rather than join a big corporation's board as their token black shareholder or director. Government must also stop thinking that state employment is a way to decrease unemployment - it isn't - it's a tax burden. India and China are churning out new, brilliant, qualified people at a rate that makes us look like losers. South Africa has a proud history of innovation, pioneering and genius. This is the only way we can advance our society and economy beyond merely coping.
kinda true.
But the greeks could excel in art and philosophy because they had slaves so the free citizens could spend their time doing that. In the same way, this history of pioneering genius was because white people had Black slaves to do the dirty work so they could "pioneer". But now Mr Cliff wants Black people to continue this pioneering when they have no slaves to do the dirty work like his forefathers did? I sort of agree with him on BEE though but the problem with this encouregement of entreprenuership is that it takes our eyes off the main prize, the real worth, the mines and other big corporations. Crudely, we are told, "find your position small time soldier and let the big boys continue". There's a myth that seems to be going on that white people are derserving hard working onwers of the wealth they have. But this wealth was created thru the inexplicable violence against the Black body. In his book, "African socialism or Socialist Africa" A.M Babu qoutes a very sad poem about the plight of small enterprenuer which I have sadly forgotten. But it made the point that, the monopoly of white capital does not allow much Black entreprenuers.
All in all Mr Cliff, gxebe le nkwenkwe ka Cliff has said nothing new and save for few conventional wisdom, has made flawed arguments, in this paragraph i mean.
i feel you. but shit is changing, fam. China is colonizing Africa and African populations are increasing in the developed nations.
it 's not as easy as it once was to use this model--the West, black and white, colonizer and colonized, socialist and capitalist.
we need to re-visit Fanon. we can't take him as is anymore.
late global capitalism, fam. i could be posted up eGcuwa making my bank in London off a 3G card and a good idea.
but then again, i'm a middle-cla** dude who thinks SA's kinda aight.
would go more into this, but the kid lazy!
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and what about illuminati?
*taps blunt and exhales*
you ain't said shit about that, my nigga.
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Every one with a laptop, thinkpad, notepad, desktop, or even a blackberry can write a letter criticizing the world...even the Heineken ad, but an individual who not only wants to diss but to offer solutions is a very wise individual.
The only message that comes across from the letter is nothing bt a lil white boy who feels that "they" are loosing everything. He just reminds of the white girls @ IBX (Not the real name) who feel that the 10% of blacks in the company were appointed purely for BEE purposes.
Let me go and listen to some Kindred Family Soul....far away from here.
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Condescending tone aside, there is a lot of truth in that letter.
just a shame that it is overshadowed by the few stupid statements.
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Condescending tone aside, there is a lot of truth in that letter.
just a shame that it is overshadowed by the few stupid statements.
cosig!!
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I think the arguments he has made are nothing new and my view of them is this:
It is at best misguided to think that an uncorrupt non power-squabbling government would bring the change that Black people deserve. And at worst (and im more inclined to believe that this is the actuall case) it is a deliberate attempt to give the dog a longer rope so it can enjoy some "freedom" and ultimately hang itself.
I am of the conviction that no real solutions can be obtained for Black people if we still cherish the 94 transition and uphold the political and constitutional dispensation that stermed from it. Even if the ANC was not corrupt and power hungry as it is, at best Black people would be out of shacks and into RDP houses, landless but employed, not healthy but being treated and generally not really free because the post-94 dispensation and the ANC has promised no more. I think it is lazy then to question the failure to deliver on promises and not the promises themselves. This is my problem for example with say, fighting for a constitutional right to housing or to information (read anti - the information bill) because the same constitution from which we derive these rights from is the same one that has the property clause, a clause that protects ill gained white wealth and ensures the continuation of Black subjugation. (The "Creation of the Black" is made up of two disposessions, (1) the disposession of the African being, "the metaphysical holocaust" and (2) displacement in the case of the diaspora or Land disposession in our case, this is why Land is so important in the restoration or at least recreation of the African).
Now a counter argument could be made that our neighbours who either have very minor settler populations or have taken back land are still struggling because of corrupt governments. To this I say of course corruption is a problem but that its eradication on its own will not help us, we must go further than that as I stated above and any argument that does not show us that we need to take the fight beyond corruption fails for it does not see that there could be a better political and dispensation within which to have a non-corrupt government.
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I think the arguments he has made are nothing new and my view of them is this:
It is at best misguided to think that an uncorrupt non power-squabbling government would bring the change that Black people deserve. And at worst (and im more inclined to believe that this is the actuall case) it is a deliberate attempt to give the dog a longer rope so it can enjoy some "freedom" and ultimately hang itself.
I am of the conviction that no real solutions can be obtained for Black people if we still cherish the 94 transition and uphold the political and constitutional dispensation that stermed from it. Even if the ANC was not corrupt and power hungry as it is, at best Black people would be out of shacks and into RDP houses, landless but employed, not healthy but being treated and generally not really free because the post-94 dispensation and the ANC has promised no more. I think it is lazy then to question the failure to deliver on promises and not the promises themselves. This is my problem for example with say, fighting for a constitutional right to housing or to information (read anti - the information bill) because the same constitution from which we derive these rights from is the same one that has the property clause, a clause that protects ill gained white wealth and ensures the continuation of Black subjugation. (The "Creation of the Black" is made up of two disposessions, (1) the disposession of the African being, "the metaphysical holocaust" and (2) displacement in the case of the diaspora or Land disposession in our case, this is why Land is so important in the restoration or at least recreation of the African).
Now a counter argument could be made that our neighbours who either have very minor settler populations or have taken back land are still struggling because of corrupt governments. To this I say of course corruption is a problem but that its eradication on its own will not help us, we must go further than that as I stated above and any argument that does not show us that we need to take the fight beyond corruption fails for it does not see that there could be a better political and dispensation within which to have a non-corrupt government.
dude. mn!
as a question of interest, lets play a 94 scenario, what kind of transition would you have structured, to get to this end where we have a non-corrupt system leading to non corrupt government?
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^^^ one that says no to protecting land that is all in white hands, no to paying off the apartheid debt, relations with the west at our terms or no relations at all and one tha would eventually usher in a Black socialist state.
Sadly but not suprisingly, The president has given dude man his ear for the letter, now ims sure there's plenty of Black people who've said a lot of stuff but never got this.
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Sadly but not suprisingly, The president has given dude man his ear for the letter, now ims sure there's plenty of Black people who've said a lot of stuff but never got this.
strategy. they're playing the same game.
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dude. mn!
as a question of interest, lets play a 94 scenario, what kind of transition would you have structured, to get to this end where we have a non-corrupt system leading to non corrupt government?
^^^ one that says no to protecting land that is all in white hands, no to paying off the apartheid debt, relations with the west at our terms or no relations at all and one tha would eventually usher in a Black socialist state.
Sadly but not suprisingly, The president has given dude man his ear for the letter, now ims sure there's plenty of Black people who've said a lot of stuff but never got this.
No offence intended but I'm sure some will be taken anyway so whatever, but I think the a**umption that there exists a transition that could definitely lead to a non-corrupt system & non-corrupt government is flawed as f***.
Every possible system of regime change has been tried and none has reliably demonstrated a positive outcome.
The alternative to the relatively peaceful transition we got would've been revolution, cos we didnt get a revolution, that would have meant a complete destruction of all existing institutions & starting from scratch... that wasnt seen as a viable option by the ANC and its struggle partners cos they didnt represent an actual military threat and they knew it. It would've been a case of Palestine vs Israel. Also the struggle in exile wasnt big enough to provide all the expertise required to maintain economic viability, food security, civilian rule of law etc.
You're looking at thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands more innocent people dead, also in order to even slightly effectively challenge the very well trained and resourced SA Army at the time would've meant help from their friends the USSR and Angola, and if military personnel from another country had crossed into this country which still had sovereignty in the eyes of the international community, then expect the US at least and possibly others to jump in on the side of the Apartheid gov, thats just what we would've needed.
I'm not saying we should be happy with what we got or that what we got is great and not f***ed up, but there are lots of lovely ideals and dreams of the perfect country according to the individuals ideology but Sosiba name me one successfully functioning socialist state (regardless of its racial split) and/or one functioning prosperous state with no relationship with the international community.
I know you said west, but do you seriously think the east embodied in China are our friends and saviours?
And you cant call China on either of those points becos they had nearly half a century of grinding poverty and frightening levels of corruption until the capitalist policy shifts which have made it the rising superpower it is today, and without the world to sell to China wouldn't have shit.
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great points. both sides.
agree with Syn, though.
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mxim
You are being stupid...
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mxim
You are being stupid...
If u didn't jerk off dogs for fun i would actually take you seriously and possibly try to be defensive.
On the real though. hows your dog cum collection? buckets full. u could make money off of that you know. I know someone who has met a millionaire selling bull sperm.
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Condescending tone aside, there is a lot of truth in that letter.
just a shame that it is overshadowed by the few stupid statements.
cosig!!
Fully agree with this.. you know, ive noticed a disturbing trends amongst darkies... and that is, a white person can criticise the guv'ment, and make very valid points whilst doing it, and everything he/she says will be dismissed because it was said a white person... and the only grounds used for dismissing that criticism would be that the white criticiser is, well, white...
To me, thats stupidity, and its a weapon that our leaders are using effectively to run-away from answering to what ppl think of them...
The ANC rarely criticises its own, so its mostly left to the opposition to do that, and unfortunately for us, the opposition is mostly white.. and so the cycle begins..
If Helen Zille says something thats not worth listening to, it must not be listened to because its not worth it, nort because she, a WHITE woman, said it..
I still say, The current leadership of this country is f***ing this country up, and thats it...
Zuma and co still sing "umshini wam", and kill so and so To me, those types of songs are irrelevant nowadays, and that type of activism has become a relic.. Honestly, we need new songs.. How about some1 writes a toy-toy song which deals with our biggest enemies right now(no, not white ppl)? like a song about HIV? or Service delivery? or Poverty? or dropped education standards? or gettin rid of corruption?
Amazingly, we r supposed to be at the cutting edge, we are supposed to be progressive thinkers.. open-minded ppl.. u know, the 'brand news'.. but we r js as backwards as the rest of them, the only difference is that we speak proper english, have non-black friends, drink alcohol with fancy names and wear expensive clothes.. but we r js as backwards as the bundu-dwellers we r so ashamed to b compared to...
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mxim
You are being stupid...
If u didn't jerk off dogs for fun i would actually take you seriously and possibly try to be defensive.
On the real though. hows your dog cum collection? buckets full. u could make money off of that you know. I know someone who has met a millionaire selling bull sperm.
This is exactly what im saying... Hence i dont post a lot of stuff here anymore.. This place is teeming with pseudo-intellectuals who would rather say shit for a few laughs than deal with serious issues..
i remember the last time we discussed business and shit like that here.. i posted something about some of the stuff i do, and was amazed at the response i got!! i had people pm'ing me asking for advise and shit, and i was shocked kauz i thought ppl were as tuned in to business and the opportunities afforded to them as i was!!!nc nc nc
and by the way RR, on the topic of of making millions: I drive a polo, and pa**at, and im in the process of buying a BT50 clubcab.. I have jst recently secured a 3 year tender worth abt R4m(coega contractor dev programme), and i have secured a year contract from Forth hare worth about R60.000 a month to train guvmnet employees on computer skills(ICDL)..Im a systems engineer, i work for SITA as a Networks consultant, im also a web and software developer.. Oh, i have also js started an IT company and im a 50% partner kwi travel agent...
So tell me, what have you done lately..
Maybe you can hold on to that sperm-selling business idea, it might benefit u...
safe...
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mxim
You are being stupid...
If u didn't jerk off dogs for fun i would actually take you seriously and possibly try to be defensive.
On the real though. hows your dog cum collection? buckets full. u could make money off of that you know. I know someone who has met a millionaire selling bull sperm.
You dont need to take me seriously.. u dont need to.. im sure that wouldnt do anything for you, just like it doesnt do shit for me...
Safe...
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http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/readerblog/2010/10/27/dear-gareth-cliff/
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Condescending tone aside, there is a lot of truth in that letter.
just a shame that it is overshadowed by the few stupid statements.
cosig!!
Fully agree with this.. you know, ive noticed a disturbing trends amongst darkies... and that is, a white person can criticise the guv'ment, and make very valid points whilst doing it, and everything he/she says will be dismissed because it was said a white person... and the only grounds used for dismissing that criticism would be that the white criticiser is, well, white...
To me, thats stupidity, and its a weapon that our leaders are using effectively to run-away from answering to what ppl think of them...
The ANC rarely criticises its own, so its mostly left to the opposition to do that, and unfortunately for us, the opposition is mostly white.. and so the cycle begins..
If Helen Zille says something thats not worth listening to, it must not be listened to because its not worth it, nort because she, a WHITE woman, said it..
I still say, The current leadership of this country is f***ing this country up, and thats it...
Zuma and co still sing "umshini wam", and kill so and so To me, those types of songs are irrelevant nowadays, and that type of activism has become a relic.. Honestly, we need new songs.. How about some1 writes a toy-toy song which deals with our biggest enemies right now(no, not white ppl)? like a song about HIV? or Service delivery? or Poverty? or dropped education standards? or gettin rid of corruption?
Amazingly, we r supposed to be at the cutting edge, we are supposed to be progressive thinkers.. open-minded ppl.. u know, the 'brand news'.. but we r js as backwards as the rest of them, the only difference is that we speak proper english, have non-black friends, drink alcohol with fancy names and wear expensive clothes.. but we r js as backwards as the bundu-dwellers we r so ashamed to b compared to...
ey dawg. I didnt ask for your resume. knowing what the rest here already knows about your financial discipline i wouldnt be suprised to hear you own the building I work at in the future. big ups on your achievements.
but i tell you this, its great to know you caught feelings over me responding to you calling me stupid. have a great day buddy. ;D
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i know white people who shit on the white opposition too!
we kick back, blaze l's and do that shit together!
f*** Gareth Cliff!
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I respect your hustle Waylander.
You seem to have a focus, what's your ultimate goal? What drives you when you wake up in the morning?
As for me, money doesn't drive me, even though my job practically safe-guards capitalism.
But, I mean, we all like to have nice things so I can meet you halfway.
I'm surprised you think the site is 'teeming with pseudo-intellectuals'. I always find the views vary to an interesting degree. Quite a few devil's advocates, afrocentrics and apologists. And a few posts to remind everyone not to take everything so seriously.
As for Gareth Cliff's letter, I did nod here and there, but nothing was new really, that's why I didn't comment before. Very few people would disagree that the government is corrupt. I was more interested in what motivated him to write it and whether it was really in the spirit of building the country. Also, I'm still sensitive to wording, perspective and tone used by white people in their criticism of black people, call it a nervous tick *shrug*
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Condescending tone aside, there is a lot of truth in that letter.
just a shame that it is overshadowed by the few stupid statements.
cosig!!
Fully agree with this.. you know, ive noticed a disturbing trends amongst darkies... and that is, a white person can criticise the guv'ment, and make very valid points whilst doing it, and everything he/she says will be dismissed because it was said a white person... and the only grounds used for dismissing that criticism would be that the white criticiser is, well, white...
To me, thats stupidity, and its a weapon that our leaders are using effectively to run-away from answering to what ppl think of them...
The ANC rarely criticises its own, so its mostly left to the opposition to do that, and unfortunately for us, the opposition is mostly white.. and so the cycle begins..
If Helen Zille says something thats not worth listening to, it must not be listened to because its not worth it, nort because she, a WHITE woman, said it..
I still say, The current leadership of this country is f***ing this country up, and thats it...
Zuma and co still sing "umshini wam", and kill so and so To me, those types of songs are irrelevant nowadays, and that type of activism has become a relic.. Honestly, we need new songs.. How about some1 writes a toy-toy song which deals with our biggest enemies right now(no, not white ppl)? like a song about HIV? or Service delivery? or Poverty? or dropped education standards? or gettin rid of corruption?
Amazingly, we r supposed to be at the cutting edge, we are supposed to be progressive thinkers.. open-minded ppl.. u know, the 'brand news'.. but we r js as backwards as the rest of them, the only difference is that we speak proper english, have non-black friends, drink alcohol with fancy names and wear expensive clothes.. but we r js as backwards as the bundu-dwellers we r so ashamed to b compared to...
ey dawg. I didnt ask for your resume. knowing what the rest here already knows about your financial discipline i wouldnt be suprised to hear you own the building I work at in the future. big ups on your achievements.
but i tell you this, its great to know you caught feelings over me responding to you calling me stupid. have a great day buddy. ;D
At least im business minded enough to try to own that building instead of wasting away in it errday.. dumb-a**..and u can go and suck on a bag of baby dicks buddy..
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make yourself some chamomile tea and chill buddy. Gareth loves you too.
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I respect your hustle Waylander.
You seem to have a focus, what's your ultimate goal? What drives you when you wake up in the morning?
As for me, money doesn't drive me, even though my job practically safe-guards capitalism.
But, I mean, we all like to have nice things so I can meet you halfway.
I'm surprised you think the site is 'teeming with pseudo-intellectuals'. I always find the views vary to an interesting degree. Quite a few devil's advocates, afrocentrics and apologists. And a few posts to remind everyone not to take everything so seriously.
As for Gareth Cliff's letter, I did nod here and there, but nothing was new really, that's why I didn't comment before. Very few people would disagree that the government is corrupt. I was more interested in what motivated him to write it and whether it was really in the spirit of building the country. Also, I'm still sensitive to wording, perspective and tone used by white people in their criticism of black people, call it a nervous tick *shrug*
coolness.
My beef is that some people are dismissing the letter simply because it was written by a white person..
not because it doesnt make sense, or is a lie etc, but simply because it was written by a white guy..
As for it not saying nothing new, i agree, but that on its own does not make it irrelevant.. Gareth cliff is a radio personality, and has a wider and bigger reach than the average guy, and he has more clout(as far as listenability is concerned)than some politicians even..
Generally, when a politician speaks, you wouldnt think twice about flippin channels, but you wouldnt reali flip a channel because gareth cliff is being interviewed..
The stir this letter has caused is a perfect example of the clout and reach dude has...
As for his motivation, only he would know.. im not sure about this, but if he is speaking the truth, do his reason matter? i mean, when Helen Zille or Mbazima Shilowa speak truth, do you stop to think whether they are saying what they saying kauz its true, or kauz they tryin to get votes?
when a ref gives chiefs a penalty, do you focus on whether a foul actually ocurred and whether its deserving of a penalty or on whether they guy hates the team chiefs is playing against?
And i respect how sensitive you still are towards what white people say and how they say it, but my point is, when they do talk, what they say shouldnt be just dismissed because of their skin colour.. Keep in mind, that behaviour makes us just like them during the arpatheid era, it means we are employing reverse racism, which basically makes everything they did to us acceptable because we are now just as guilty...
As for this AG being full of pseudo-intellectuals, i think thats a fact.. Some big-worded views expressed on some threads are utterly stupid once you strip away all the beautiful colors they are covered with.
and i understand that this site is full of jokers, apologists and such, as you stated, but some things just get me going.. but ke, i do apologise for getting all emo on ya'll!!!
As what drives me and my ultimate goals, simple: MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!!
Thats the reason i went to school, got a job, started my businesses.. 95% of the decisions i make are motivated by gwop..
Money is 95% hapiness.. simple... everything thing that makes you happy except love(in some cases) requires money.. so its a simple equation NEEDS/WANTS + MONEY = HAPINESSES!!
and the more you have, the happier you are.. the only people who are happy without money are people who've never had it, so its value means nothing to them...
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Shit, the only reason I want money is so I can get some a**.
All that other shit is irrelevant to me.
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I respect your hustle Waylander.
You seem to have a focus, what's your ultimate goal? What drives you when you wake up in the morning?
As for me, money doesn't drive me, even though my job practically safe-guards capitalism.
But, I mean, we all like to have nice things so I can meet you halfway.
I'm surprised you think the site is 'teeming with pseudo-intellectuals'. I always find the views vary to an interesting degree. Quite a few devil's advocates, afrocentrics and apologists. And a few posts to remind everyone not to take everything so seriously.
As for Gareth Cliff's letter, I did nod here and there, but nothing was new really, that's why I didn't comment before. Very few people would disagree that the government is corrupt. I was more interested in what motivated him to write it and whether it was really in the spirit of building the country. Also, I'm still sensitive to wording, perspective and tone used by white people in their criticism of black people, call it a nervous tick *shrug*
coolness.
My beef is that some people are dismissing the letter simply because it was written by a white person..
not because it doesnt make sense, or is a lie etc, but simply because it was written by a white guy..
As for it not saying nothing new, i agree, but that on its own does not make it irrelevant.. Gareth cliff is a radio personality, and has a wider and bigger reach than the average guy, and he has more clout(as far as listenability is concerned)than some politicians even..
Generally, when a politician speaks, you wouldnt think twice about flippin channels, but you wouldnt reali flip a channel because gareth cliff is being interviewed..
The stir this letter has caused is a perfect example of the clout and reach dude has...
As for his motivation, only he would know.. im not sure about this, but if he is speaking the truth, do his reason matter? i mean, when Helen Zille or Mbazima Shilowa speak truth, do you stop to think whether they are saying what they saying kauz its true, or kauz they tryin to get votes?
when a ref gives chiefs a penalty, do you focus on whether a foul actually ocurred and whether its deserving of a penalty or on whether they guy hates the team chiefs is playing against?
And i respect how sensitive you still are towards what white people say and how they say it, but my point is, when they do talk, what they say shouldnt be just dismissed because of their skin colour.. Keep in mind, that behaviour makes us just like them during the arpatheid era, it means we are employing reverse racism, which basically makes everything they did to us acceptable because we are now just as guilty...
As for this AG being full of pseudo-intellectuals, i think thats a fact.. Some big-worded views expressed on some threads are utterly stupid once you strip away all the beautiful colors they are covered with.
and i understand that this site is full of jokers, apologists and such, as you stated, but some things just get me going.. but ke, i do apologise for getting all emo on ya'll!!!
As what drives me and my ultimate goals, simple: MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!!
Thats the reason i went to school, got a job, started my businesses.. 95% of the decisions i make are motivated by gwop..
Money is 95% hapiness.. simple... everything thing that makes you happy except love(in some cases) requires money.. so its a simple equation NEEDS/WANTS + MONEY = HAPINESSES!!
and the more you have, the happier you are.. the only people who are happy without money are people who've never had it, so its value means nothing to them...
i actually feel dumber after reading this.
no offense.
as you were.
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cliff is just being an attention whore. hes just taking an uecessary advantage of his fanbase with this. somethings just arent meant to change, so they better off left to demise on their own.
these constant arguements and debates about apartheid are only bringing back a dead fire to life.
people should stop this nonsense of using apartheid as a way of gaining public ttention!
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Black people do not need a white jesus.
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3. Education is a disaster. We're the least literate and numerate country in Africa. Zimbabwe produces better school results and turns out smarter kids than we do...
::)
Well, Zim does have the 'highest literacy rate in Africa', so what's he getting at here?
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3. Education is a disaster. We're the least literate and numerate country in Africa. Zimbabwe produces better school results and turns out smarter kids than we do...
::)
Well, Zim does have the 'highest literacy rate in Africa', so what's he getting at here?
I think he is trying to say that a failed state can do better than our supposedly first world government.
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Gareth Cliff is the poster boy of post-1994 racism and the ANC is happy to burnish his image.
Responses to Cliff's "Letter to the government" on his website have exposed that most South Africans cannot decode white supremacists' texts and actions.
Cliff, the Radio 5 DJ, has written an anti-black manifesto which ironically is celebrated as a statement for clean government.
He has achieved what the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging and other right-wing racists groups have failed achieve -- normalising white supremacy.
He dresses it up as humanist concerns for good governance and service delivery. Cliff is the new paternalistic white liberal Biko so despised.
Taken from a column on the M&G website. To read the rest of the article follow the link: www.mg.co.za/article/2010-11-08-the-face-of-white-supremacy
Thoughts?
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SO, we're back to the whole rubbishing of all his points only because he is white thing?
Seriously.
Read the damn letter and if there is nothing you agree with, then you are probably an Mp or an idiot.
If you can find some common ground, go with it.
As for dragging race or anything else into it, you're an idiot if you do that.
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^^^
True. Dude does the same thing that he accuses Gareth of doind - generalising and a**uming that he speaks for all of us. Point is Gareth raises good points and he got a chance to get through to the government. His claim that black journalists have been chastised for racist is evidence of the government's wrongdoing, not Gareth's. Nigga needs to fall back with the white/black bullshit. Yeah we migth have different problems as whites/blacks and everyone else, but service delivery, corruption and education affect us all! This generalisation bullshit is not a good look.
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my only problem with this is that gareth cliff writes a letter to the president and he gets a lunch with the communications department of the president, ordinary south africans who recieve no service delivery and call in to the presidential hotline are not given a reply or have to wait months for a reply. i am pretty sure that the suburb that gareth stays in has no problems with basic service delivery. the problem is that a white person makes a noise about service delivery he gets a lunch in sandton, and the people the ANC says they serve have to wait months for a reply. That is what is wrong with this whole letter thing.
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my only problem with this is that gareth cliff writes a letter to the president and he gets a lunch with the communications department of the president, ordinary south africans who recieve no service delivery and call in to the presidential hotline are not given a reply or have to wait months for a reply. i am pretty sure that the suburb that gareth stays in has no problems with basic service delivery. the problem is that a white person makes a noise about service delivery he gets a lunch in sandton, and the people the ANC says they serve have to wait months for a reply. That is what is wrong with this whole letter thing.
you have a point.
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Do you think there would have been a difference response if it was Fresh who wrote the letter? Or any other black celebrity with the reach and youth support of Cliff?
We have to ask ourselves if it is because he is white, or because he is famous.
Then again, why should it make a difference if someone is famous? Why treat a spoilt overhyped talking head better than you treat your voting, tax-paying public?
There is a lot wrong with this whole situation and us adding unnecessary and divisive aspects like race into it, only harms our own cause. Instead all South africans should be doing the same as Cliff and threatening to let hell break loose if we don't get the same special treatment and our concerns aren't adressed.
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Do you think there would have been a difference response if it was Fresh who wrote the letter? Or any other black celebrity with the reach and youth support of Cliff?
We have to ask ourselves if it is because he is white, or because he is famous.
Then again, why should it make a difference if someone is famous? Why treat a spoilt overhyped talking head better than you treat your voting, tax-paying public?
There is a lot wrong with this whole situation and us adding unnecessary and divisive aspects like race into it, only harms our own cause. Instead all South africans should be doing the same as Cliff and threatening to let hell break loose if we don't get the same special treatment and our concerns aren't adressed.
i know a black person in the entertainment business with a far more reach to the affected people than Gareth who has been dealt with in some way by the current and previous president for the views they have and in one case support she was not willing to sellout for to the current president. the artist told me personally, i will not mention the name nor the details.
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Selective qouting (isnt that wat qouting is anyway?) I know but this:
"There is a lot wrong with this whole situation and us adding unnecessary and divisive aspects like race into it, only harms our own cause."
Divisive aspects like race? What are we united by that we maybe divided by race? And who does your use of "our" in "our cause" take along, considering that you've said race is divisive? is our cause one for all races?
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Check this response to Andile Mngxitama (The M&G dude)'s column:
"You wrote on the Mail And Guardian that Gareth Cliff is the poster boy of post 1994 racism and some other trite crap. You proclaim that his letter to the government leads you to think most South Africans cannot decode white supremacism. In fact you have just proved what a moron you are.
Gareth Cliffs letter to the government is written by a South African who happens to be white. His plea is not just for whites to be advantaged, nor is it a reactionary ode to the past. It speaks directly to the failures of the Government that our people voted for."
Read more here: http://guymclaren.com/dear-andile/
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Do you think there would have been a difference response if it was Fresh who wrote the letter? Or any other black celebrity with the reach and youth support of Cliff?
We have to ask ourselves if it is because he is white, or because he is famous.
Then again, why should it make a difference if someone is famous? Why treat a spoilt overhyped talking head better than you treat your voting, tax-paying public?
There is a lot wrong with this whole situation and us adding unnecessary and divisive aspects like race into it, only harms our own cause. Instead all South africans should be doing the same as Cliff and threatening to let hell break loose if we don't get the same special treatment and our concerns aren't adressed.
we cannot run away from the fact that everything in south africa will eventually be a race issue... if it was fresh he would have been called a " bloody agent" advancing the agenda of his white paymasters ( 5FM caters for the white market)
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Check this response to Andile Mngxitama (The M&G dude)'s column:
"You wrote on the Mail And Guardian that Gareth Cliff is the poster boy of post 1994 racism and some other trite crap. You proclaim that his letter to the government leads you to think most South Africans cannot decode white supremacism. In fact you have just proved what a moron you are.
Gareth Cliffs letter to the government is written by a South African who happens to be white. His plea is not just for whites to be advantaged, nor is it a reactionary ode to the past. It speaks directly to the failures of the Government that our people voted for."
Read more here: http://guymclaren.com/dear-andile/
funny how "white" racist talk like their concern is for the majority but give themselves away and people just dont pick it up.
I hope your BEE deals have enriched you well because sooner or later the South African people will see through your crap and boy then you are gonna need big bucks to find asylum
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Do you think there would have been a difference response if it was Fresh who wrote the letter? Or any other black celebrity with the reach and youth support of Cliff?
We have to ask ourselves if it is because he is white, or because he is famous.
Then again, why should it make a difference if someone is famous? Why treat a spoilt overhyped talking head better than you treat your voting, tax-paying public?
There is a lot wrong with this whole situation and us adding unnecessary and divisive aspects like race into it, only harms our own cause. Instead all South africans should be doing the same as Cliff and threatening to let hell break loose if we don't get the same special treatment and our concerns aren't adressed.
we cannot run away from the fact that everything in south africa will eventually be a race issue... if it was fresh he would have been called a " bloody agent" advancing the agenda of his white paymasters ( 5FM caters for the white market)
Shu Nuff, but are we going to bring it up at every turn? Are we so stuck in our ways that we can't separate the real issues from the bullshit prejudice we perpetrate our selves? Is the victim mentality so deeply instilled that we can't even acknowledge it when a white guy raises critical points which apply to all of us? It's messed up that guvment chose to listen to Cliff and let other people's cries fall by the way side but it is what it is. Point is dude raised valid points and here's an idiot with a platform trying to shred Cliff's gripes to pieces and labelling them white supremacy. f***outtahere. If that letter get's anything done by the government then props to Cliff. Will you be upset if they fix your street lamps as a result of Gareth's efforts?
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I'm sure Helen Zille raises valid issues too from time to time but that doesn't mean that she has our interest at heart.
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Divisive aspects like race? What are we united by that we maybe divided by race? And who does your use of "our" in "our cause" take along, considering that you've said race is divisive? is our cause one for all races?
You ask what we are united by.
Well, would you say we are all united by the lack of service delivery and suffering due to the rampant self-enrichment at the expense of the poor? This isn't a black or white thing.
I live in a white hood, where the trash has been piling up in the streets for the past three weeks and hasn't been collected. We often don't have water, because of infrastructure decay.
When I go to the hood I grew up in, I see the same problems. No white folk there. Are they allowed to complain, but us and our white neighbours aren't?
Dealing with issues such as these is a cause for all races.
I wrote a story last week, about kids in kids literally dying of hunger in Naledi municipality in the Free State.
http://www.volksblad.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Kinders-sterf-van-honger-in-Naledi-owerheid-wis-nie-daarvan-20101030
There are white people living in the township there, trying to feed these kids. Should we disregard their pleas for government help, because they are white?
You would be shocked if I were to post some of the pics I took there. Little kids who look like they live in a Ethiopian refugee camp, rather than a town less than 100 km from Bloem.
Then we sit here and talk about race as if it matters. And we blast someone for saying something when there are people out there buying R1 million cars, instead of food for the poor.
f*** anyone who thinks this makes sense and tries to justify it.
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in my experience, most of the people directly affected would agree with Mngxitama. they are just that much more adept at reading both sides.
the problem about this cat is that he takes highly developed race theory and tries to condense it into layman's terms in order to deal with economic and political issues. if you study race theory or read widely in black radical thought, incorporating theories in philology and ontology, you'll understand what he means about "unconscious white supremacy"--and you'll see how he's right, for the most part.
that, or just be poor and in constant mercy of white people.
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in my experience, most of the people directly affected would agree with Mngxitama. they are just that much more adept at reading both sides.
the problem about this cat is that he takes highly developed race theory and tries to condense it into layman's terms in order to deal with economic and political issues. if you study race theory or read widely in black radical thought, incorporating theories in philology and ontology, you'll understand what he means about "unconscious white supremacy"--and you'll see how he's right, for the most part.
that, or just be poor and in constant mercy of white people.
Pyro, i hear what u are saying, but race issues are very very complex. very complex, i still need to internalize the psyche behind Cliff's letter, however as much as i feel that he has some valid points i also can some what empathize where this andile cat is from how? it could be as a result of the very same complex issues of race that i speak of.
common sense will not prevail for a long time to come when it comes to race relations in this country and thats something we need to deal with, its a by product of our past. i feel
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i would like to think that this is not about race, but sadly it is, for how long have the people in the community you are talking about been complaining about their situation and nothing has been done, at least a visit from the presidents office to see the situation first hand? and we have a white boy with everything that the new SA has to offer, being rolled out the red carpet and having duck in sandton city with the ANC. What i took out Andile's article is that the ANC was quick to listen to grieviances of a priviledged South African ( read as white) and does nothing for the people who vote for them ( read as black), if one cannot see the see this as a problem and go on about people being quick to use the race card, when it is obvious that is what it is... How many people have complained about service delivery and all you get is a bloated Julius Malema handing out food parcels? I guess Gareth also got his food parcel
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i would like to think that this is not about race, but sadly it is, for how long have the people in the community you are talking about been complaining about their situation and nothing has been done, at least a visit from the presidents office to see the situation first hand? and we have a white boy with everything that the new SA has to offer, being rolled out the red carpet and having duck in sandton city with the ANC. What i took out Andile's article is that the ANC was quick to listen to grieviances of a priviledged South African ( read as white) and does nothing for the people who vote for them ( read as black), if one cannot see the see this as a problem and go on about people being quick to use the race card, when it is obvious that is what it is... How many people have complained about service delivery and all you get is a bloated Julius Malema handing out food parcels? I guess Gareth also got his food parcel
@sero147 I hear you, and I agree that this is a problem but who in this case is in the wrong? Is it Gareth's fault that he managed to get more than a shrug? Or is it the government that we (using this word very loosely right now) voted in? I haven't analysed all the racial undertones and shit that may be littered all over the letter coz quiet frankly I don't see everything in black and white (sue me), but the point is the government, which consists of a majority blacks, listened to him. You can't blame Gareth for that.
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Check this response to Andile Mngxitama (The M&G dude)'s column:
"You wrote on the Mail And Guardian that Gareth Cliff is the poster boy of post 1994 racism and some other trite crap. You proclaim that his letter to the government leads you to think most South Africans cannot decode white supremacism. In fact you have just proved what a moron you are.
Gareth Cliffs letter to the government is written by a South African who happens to be white. His plea is not just for whites to be advantaged, nor is it a reactionary ode to the past. It speaks directly to the failures of the Government that our people voted for."
Read more here: http://guymclaren.com/dear-andile/
funny how "white" racist talk like their concern is for the majority but give themselves away and people just dont pick it up.
I hope your BEE deals have enriched you well because sooner or later the South African people will see through your crap and boy then you are gonna need big bucks to find asylum
Funny how stupid bigots see racism where there is none. Funny how the South African people will lose the blinkers and chase them into the sea. The division caused by fools and fearmongers will not heal this land.
I a**umed that Andile is a tenderpreneur hence my wish thjat his BEE deals have enriched him sufficiently that he can find asylum when the people get gatvol of hatred and stupidity. That day will come.
I proudly do not need to care for others, I have a pretty good life without tenders, without the need to cheat, rob and steal from others. I also have no need to spread dissension amongst the people of this land, people like you and Andile cause enough for three continents.
My skills are available where they are needed, just don't ask for a bribe.
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Check this response to Andile Mngxitama (The M&G dude)'s column:
"You wrote on the Mail And Guardian that Gareth Cliff is the poster boy of post 1994 racism and some other trite crap. You proclaim that his letter to the government leads you to think most South Africans cannot decode white supremacism. In fact you have just proved what a moron you are.
Gareth Cliffs letter to the government is written by a South African who happens to be white. His plea is not just for whites to be advantaged, nor is it a reactionary ode to the past. It speaks directly to the failures of the Government that our people voted for."
Read more here: http://guymclaren.com/dear-andile/
funny how "white" racist talk like their concern is for the majority but give themselves away and people just dont pick it up.
I hope your BEE deals have enriched you well because sooner or later the South African people will see through your crap and boy then you are gonna need big bucks to find asylum
Funny how stupid bigots see racism where there is none. Funny how the South African people will lose the blinkers and chase them into the sea. The division caused by fools and fearmongers will not heal this land.
I a**umed that Andile is a tenderpreneur hence my wish thjat his BEE deals have enriched him sufficiently that he can find asylum when the people get gatvol of hatred and stupidity. That day will come.
I proudly do not need to care for others, I have a pretty good life without tenders, without the need to cheat, rob and steal from others. I also have no need to spread dissension amongst the people of this land, people like you and Andile cause enough for three continents.
My skills are available where they are needed, just don't ask for a bribe.
*yawn*
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I'm so glad for all the differing opinions here.
Opens up the possibilities.
I've realised though, that black people over time will forget everything they went through and begin to be distant from it, romanticise it (begin to make flippant comparisons to apartheid O.o) and become entangled in more sophisticated ways. Racism today is hardly ever overt, its hard to pin-point and therefore hard to confront because it can be clothed in many 'indignant' ways.
But I trust my 1st instincts. I'm paranoid. I don't believe every white person is a racist (a lot aren't) but I believe there is a system of global white supremacy which seeks to preserve itself by ever-subtle means (which white people individually benefit from). A privilege many fear even owning up to. And I think people like me are needed in the midst of this discourse. There will be plenty to balance us out.
We're crazy, overly-sensitive, perpetual-victims, full of rage. Whatever. We're necessary in reminding folk when the rope gets too short and they begin to hang themselves, because we never lose context for conformity. Till then situations like this letter are shallow jabs, I don't believe Gareth is conscious of his racism as viewed from my tainted perspective. But his comments serve a larger purpose, however unintended, in maintaining a certain social order.
As you were.
What's AG without a race discussion?
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Why r we always bitchin about racism..is it really important?are we that desperate to have white folk invite us over to their parties n learning to pronounce our names proper that we'd neglect issues like poverty thats literally killin people out there and waste our energy bitchin about unity ? Government will never see the need to step up their service-delivery game but instead they'll be wastin time tryna fight racism than tryina improve black people's lives..
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nice take Anna, ngaphaya koko, ndincamile, oh Thix' omnyama!
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I'm so glad for all the differing opinions here.
Opens up the possibilities.
I've realised though, that black people over time will forget everything they went through and begin to be distant from it, romanticise it (begin to make flippant comparisons to apartheid O.o) and become entangled in more sophisticated ways. Racism today is hardly ever overt, its hard to pin-point and therefore hard to confront because it can be clothed in many 'indignant' ways.
But I trust my 1st instincts. I'm paranoid. I don't believe every white person is a racist (a lot aren't) but I believe there is a system of global white supremacy which seeks to preserve itself by ever-subtle means (which white people individually benefit from). A privilege many fear even owning up to. And I think people like me are needed in the midst of this discourse. There will be plenty to balance us out.
We're crazy, overly-sensitive, perpetual-victims, full of rage. Whatever. We're necessary in reminding folk when the rope gets too short and they begin to hang themselves, because we never lose context for conformity. Till then situations like this letter are shallow jabs, I don't believe Gareth is conscious of his racism as viewed from my tainted perspective. But his comments serve a larger purpose, however unintended, in maintaining a certain social order.
As you were.
What's AG without a race discussion?
Nice one Anna
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And another response folks, this time by one of Andile colleagues at M&G. Here's an excerpt:
In last week's Body Language in the Mail & Guardian, in a piece titled "The face of white supremacy", Mngxitama a**erts that Cliff has "normalised white supremacy", a feat apparently achieved via his open letter to the government gaining sufficient traction to result in him being invited to a presidential lunch.
The key -- and only -- virtue of Mngxitama's argument is that it is completely unfalsifiable. Nothing I can say will therefore refute it, but it's nevertheless worth pointing out how easy this style of argument is, and how little value it adds to rational discourse.
Read more here: http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-11-12-white-supremacy-rant-against-gareth-cliff-sullies-rational-political-debate
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Ayo Panic...can you break this shit down for me? It's from one of the comments at the last M&G opinion piece I posted. Shit's way too higher grade for me (either that or it's the whole Friday afternoon Itis thing), but it seems hella interesting. Please don't Colin me...
It's important when evaluating both the argument and the counter-argument to focus on the texts themselves, not on emotion or name-calling. A good way to do this is to a**ume this were an argument that "Michael Jordan’s recent disagreement with the Washington mayor is a product of tall people’s supremacy complex" and apply your own tests to the logic. To the counter-argument first – I would not necessarily agree that “These judgments are also not connected to Cliff as a person, but rather to his being a white person and this is what makes Mngxitama a racist”. There is insufficient evidence to draw this final conclusion. Rather, the key elements of the ‘post colonial literary theory’ used in Mngxitama’s argument are (1) The use of words and generalisations that cannot be specifically defined and can’t be tied down in time and space (a good French legal test of whether a definition is meaningful or not) – look carefully at the words ‘the whole reality’ in this sentence “A basic mistake is the misreading of white supremacy as the preserve of neo-Nazi lunatic elements and not part of the whole reality that naturalises white privilege at the expense of blacks.” What is the exact semantic meaning of “the whole reality”? (2) Determinism – the removal of agency. This is an ingredient common to Marxist theory (and some racist theory – Mein Kampf, or Houston Stewart Chamberlain’s Myth of the 20th Century for instance). Racism is not a conscious act by sentient, sapient beings, with agents and recipients. It is a mysterious ether, with none of the before, that all of one group or another are guilty of. There are no individual distinctions between people. No member of any group has any choices as an individual, and individual decisions are all subsumed into some mysterious “collective unconscious” – the use of the actual word “unconscious” indicates this . All of group X are one thing or another – be they Jews, whites, blacks, the proletariat, the bourgeoisie or any other collective noun one may choose. The logic of (a) Does the individual have any choices at all? and (b) Is there any empirical or scientific evidence to back up the collective uniformity theory? are not tested. Hence I would argue that the primary thesis being advanced is one of “supreme determinism” or pa**ive observation of inexorable forces beyond any active control, and this theory could be applied to any dichotomy in social science (tall vs short people, for instance). However there needs to be a more rigorous argument to support this “determinism” theory rather than stating it as a self-evident truth. That’s when the argument starts becoming interesting.
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Can someone summarize? Did we learn anything new from this media hyped open letter and presidential lunch?
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We learned that celebrities are more important than the general populace and that anytime a white person complains about something it is because he is racist, even if his complaint could also improve the lives of black people if it were to be addressed.
Tune in next month for more lessons from South Africa.
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Ayo Panic...can you break this shit down for me? It's from one of the comments at the last M&G opinion piece I posted. Shit's way too higher grade for me (either that or it's the whole Friday afternoon Itis thing), but it seems hella interesting. Please don't Colin me...
It's important when evaluating both the argument and the counter-argument to focus on the texts themselves, not on emotion or name-calling. A good way to do this is to a**ume this were an argument that "Michael Jordan’s recent disagreement with the Washington mayor is a product of tall people’s supremacy complex" and apply your own tests to the logic. To the counter-argument first – I would not necessarily agree that “These judgments are also not connected to Cliff as a person, but rather to his being a white person and this is what makes Mngxitama a racist”. There is insufficient evidence to draw this final conclusion. Rather, the key elements of the ‘post colonial literary theory’ used in Mngxitama’s argument are (1) The use of words and generalisations that cannot be specifically defined and can’t be tied down in time and space (a good French legal test of whether a definition is meaningful or not) – look carefully at the words ‘the whole reality’ in this sentence “A basic mistake is the misreading of white supremacy as the preserve of neo-Nazi lunatic elements and not part of the whole reality that naturalises white privilege at the expense of blacks.” What is the exact semantic meaning of “the whole reality”? (2) Determinism – the removal of agency. This is an ingredient common to Marxist theory (and some racist theory – Mein Kampf, or Houston Stewart Chamberlain’s Myth of the 20th Century for instance). Racism is not a conscious act by sentient, sapient beings, with agents and recipients. It is a mysterious ether, with none of the before, that all of one group or another are guilty of. There are no individual distinctions between people. No member of any group has any choices as an individual, and individual decisions are all subsumed into some mysterious “collective unconscious” – the use of the actual word “unconscious” indicates this . All of group X are one thing or another – be they Jews, whites, blacks, the proletariat, the bourgeoisie or any other collective noun one may choose. The logic of (a) Does the individual have any choices at all? and (b) Is there any empirical or scientific evidence to back up the collective uniformity theory? are not tested. Hence I would argue that the primary thesis being advanced is one of “supreme determinism” or pa**ive observation of inexorable forces beyond any active control, and this theory could be applied to any dichotomy in social science (tall vs short people, for instance). However there needs to be a more rigorous argument to support this “determinism” theory rather than stating it as a self-evident truth. That’s when the argument starts becoming interesting.
This is the kind of stuff that my man Solarman f***s with!!! ;) ;) ;)
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Ayo Panic...can you break this shit down for me? It's from one of the comments at the last M&G opinion piece I posted. Shit's way too higher grade for me (either that or it's the whole Friday afternoon Itis thing), but it seems hella interesting. Please don't Colin me...
It's important when evaluating both the argument and the counter-argument to focus on the texts themselves, not on emotion or name-calling. A good way to do this is to a**ume this were an argument that "Michael Jordan’s recent disagreement with the Washington mayor is a product of tall people’s supremacy complex" and apply your own tests to the logic. To the counter-argument first – I would not necessarily agree that “These judgments are also not connected to Cliff as a person, but rather to his being a white person and this is what makes Mngxitama a racist”. There is insufficient evidence to draw this final conclusion. Rather, the key elements of the ‘post colonial literary theory’ used in Mngxitama’s argument are (1) The use of words and generalisations that cannot be specifically defined and can’t be tied down in time and space (a good French legal test of whether a definition is meaningful or not) – look carefully at the words ‘the whole reality’ in this sentence “A basic mistake is the misreading of white supremacy as the preserve of neo-Nazi lunatic elements and not part of the whole reality that naturalises white privilege at the expense of blacks.” What is the exact semantic meaning of “the whole reality”? (2) Determinism – the removal of agency. This is an ingredient common to Marxist theory (and some racist theory – Mein Kampf, or Houston Stewart Chamberlain’s Myth of the 20th Century for instance). Racism is not a conscious act by sentient, sapient beings, with agents and recipients. It is a mysterious ether, with none of the before, that all of one group or another are guilty of. There are no individual distinctions between people. No member of any group has any choices as an individual, and individual decisions are all subsumed into some mysterious “collective unconscious” – the use of the actual word “unconscious” indicates this . All of group X are one thing or another – be they Jews, whites, blacks, the proletariat, the bourgeoisie or any other collective noun one may choose. The logic of (a) Does the individual have any choices at all? and (b) Is there any empirical or scientific evidence to back up the collective uniformity theory? are not tested. Hence I would argue that the primary thesis being advanced is one of “supreme determinism” or pa**ive observation of inexorable forces beyond any active control, and this theory could be applied to any dichotomy in social science (tall vs short people, for instance). However there needs to be a more rigorous argument to support this “determinism” theory rather than stating it as a self-evident truth. That’s when the argument starts becoming interesting.
hahahaha. no man this is nonsense, this person is just f***ing with you all.