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Authentic African Hip Hop Sound

TATEguru v.2K9

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The issue of the authentic african hip hop sound is a contentious one (as evidenced by the other threads. Lets start it again here:
Does Zubz rapping in English make him any less of an African MC? What About Tumi? His Band is full of white boys and he raps in English, does that detract from him as an african emcee?
Just Coz Mizchief who is also from Zim raps in Shona (sometimes) does that make him a more authentic african mc? Actually those of us in the know can recall a time when Zubz did rap in Ndebele! Check out the track "Simple Pleasures" released in 1999 sometime in Grahamstown..
Quote:

They always asking me the same 2 questions:
"Why do you Spit your verses in European?
Why do you speak as if you´re Americaaan
What is the significance of these 2 Questions?"


I urge everyone from the previous discussion on the authentic african hip hop sound to PLEASE download for FREE the track "2 questions" from the latest Innovators Mixtape "TNG Presents..the Big-Ups from SL Mag"  that addresses these very issues http://tate.rucus.net/hiphocalypse/08 2 Questions.wma" TARGET="_blank">HERE.
Hopefully it will shed some light and offer some insight.
Silence, TNG, Khoi anyone else I would love to hear what you have to say.


Supafly

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Let me break it down like this, Tate.

Firstly, when you say authentic African Hip-Hop, what do you mean?

Whose authenticity are we talking about? What does African Hip-Hop mean? And who decided what is and what isn´t African Hip-Hop?

There are problems with these notions. But we can´t answer these questions until we agree what African Hip-Hop is, or at the very least understand what we mean by it.

Supafly




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Young-n-mighty

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well, like what makes FRENCH hip hop FRENCH? the fact that they rap in FRENCH? Or is because the rap is from FRANCE? or is it because its a FRENCHCITIZEN who raps. I think its ALL or A combination of these factors.
wHAT MAKES turkish HIPHOP turkish?

The issue here is that for so long Africa feels denigrated and misrepresented so we´re always trying to find ourselves or whatever in this modern  global culture.

The thing is, admittedly if we experiment with our own local flavours we can take hiphop to another level. If we had a gathering of international MC´s who all sounded the same like they came out of the bronx- its like hiphop would be severely limited.

The problem comes in trying to a**ociate certain styles with Blackness. "You´re black so must sound like a Black." "Black MC´s must sound like their roots"
That´s really the problem. Koloureds must sound kwaai or something becoz they´re coloured.
This is what i meant when i said calling it African Hiphop (instead of talking aobut HIP HOP FROM AFRICA which is less essentialist and more inclusive) is completely tribal. Coz you´re looking at certian types of people and saying they need to pay homage to, be obligated to, certain styles and mannerisms which are a**ociated with these ´specific´ races and cultures.
Its like saying ZULU´s must keep sounding ZULU.
Black MC´s must be more African.

I mean, if Gini Grindith tried to sound like Eminem it would feel awkward. but the fact the he might not rap in Zulu doesnt make his sound less South African. So its like, is it okay for white MC´s to get away with their english and their cosmopolitan urban sounds. Black people must make an effort to sound BLACK. I dont think this will work. ZUBZ, its cool my man. This racial stuff was the white devil´s spawn anyway.

But on the other hand, if you caint rap in yo tongue, try draw other influences. I mean, Bra Hugh´s trumpet would work great with spoken word over it. AND THAT´S African. even if the words are english. damn, and then what if some German person takes our sounds and uses them? No, man it becomes german hiphop despite the experimentation with the african aesthetic.

I mean, the issues here are complex. We need to ask ourselves WHY its an ISSUE in South Africa and why in this context and can we get over this some time?

Will it always be an issue simply because authenticity moves units in this country? Until you sound AFRICAN you wont sell?

I bet you average model c kid couldnt give a damn if people rhymed in an accent as long as they just did hiphop.
the whole kasi, KEEPING IT REAL thing is fake and we all know it. And it gets boring.

Ultimately though, we must admit it seems silly to rap in an accent you dont really speak in.

Quote:
ZUBZ in HYPE:

That criticism aimed at me is so oldnow that it actually feels like i´m wasting time. A lot of the people that criticise others for sounding American will not be able to identify to you what is the African sound in the first place!... I feel when people start getting caught up with how you sound, they aren´t listening to what you´re saying. Its actually very disappointing that at this stage  of hip hop in South Africa, people are still hung up on accents man. There´s more to hiphop that just someone´s accent


quot;I bleed rhymes when i'm wounded, seems to happen more and more as I lie face down on a puddle of my own metaphors on the floor"
Soulheir the Manchild


TATEguru v.2K9

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I (like TNG and Zubz) grew up in a society that embra**ed a lot of american culture. I have been acused of speaking with an american accent many a time but unfortunately thats the environment I grew up in. If I were to rap it would probably be in said american accent but does that make me any less of an African emcee. If I were to rap in my native shona language "pane angandinzwa he-re"? I didnt think so..my appeal would be very limited even in my own country.
I say PAMBERI (Forward with) ZUBZ, TUMI, TNG and everyone that raps in English at least I can understand them! They NO LESS emcees than those rhyming in venac often with less substance!


blakrok

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Quote:

30-06-2004 at 11:56, Young-n-mighty :
The problem comes in trying to a**ociate certain styles with Blackness. "You´re black so must sound like a Black." "Black MC´s must sound like their roots"
That´s really the problem. Will it always be an issue simply because authenticity moves units in this country? Until you sound AFRICAN you wont sell?
Ultimately though, we must admit it seems silly to rap in an accent you dont really speak in.

Quote:
ZUBZ in HYPE:

I feel when people start getting caught up with how you sound, they aren´t listening to what you´re saying. There´s more to hiphop that just someone´s accent






word! there´s always gonna be a debate as to what does an doesn´t sound "african" an like young said, who´s to decide what is an isn´t african? i´ve probably hit on this point before, but cla**ifyin hip-hop accordin to what language you´re rappin in often creates some isolation or anotha, not sayin that rappin in vernac iz wrong (we all know how tight it can be) but when emcees are looked down upon (as it so often happens today...i mean bein labelled as abo "chizboy" an what-not) for rappin in english, it makes you wonder really, where we´re goin wit this. as far as i´m concerned, tha aim iz to educate an elevate (once in a while "innovate"...wudup tng & second son!) as for "drawin influences from africa" it´s all good, but to those that don´t see this as bein "african enuff" what´s to stop them into turnin hip-hop into a recycled form of kwaito or mbaqanga? it seems to me that we´re so caught up in cultural boundaries that we don´t even bother to step back an reflect on how we´re really dealin wit these issues.


TNGlive

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Even "ndakaponda marhymes akapenga hapana anenge achindinzwa". Which makes u wonder what is the point. Because the whole strength of rap music, is what the mc is saying? Never mind what d12 was talking about in Bi$HG that all some people do is listen to the beat. True fans are rewinding because of that feeling of "oh did he/she just say that? Let me hear that again. How did he/she put those words together to make them sound nice, and make sense. What is the message, feeling conveyed in this song?"
There´s just over 800million of us on this continent. Each group has it´s own heritage, background, stories and languages. IT JUST SO HAPPENS English and French are languages that if you speak and understand, you are better able to communicate with the most number of people in Africa. Rap music being about that, it just so happens we rap in ENglish or French. Pick your choice.
Funny thing is those that rap in vernac do not get knocked for it by those that don´t. Yet those that rap in vernac are quick to knock those that don´t. ??
Anyway, the ignorance of it all is what I have explained in my track 2 questions. Because there are much bigger and important issuses to overcome in our world of Africa before we even come close to have nothing better to do than think what you are rapping in is a big deal. IMPORTANCE OF SUCCESSFUL COMMUNICATION will squash that argument anyway.


[ This message was edited by: TNG on 30-06-2004 12:39 ]


Young-n-mighty

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oukes, yes indeed we will get to downloading the track (sometime soon when i stop being VIRUSPHOBIC, actually when i get my little sister to do it for me...)
but im intrigued by what this 2 QUESTIONS track says.
Sounds like COOL, would like to see the lyrics, or part of them to see what issues they raise to add to this debate...

i just figured, its cool coz when people are googling things, they come across some of these threads, and indeed MORE POWER TO THE WEBBED WORLD...
quot;I bleed rhymes when i'm wounded, seems to happen more and more as I lie face down on a puddle of my own metaphors on the floor"
Soulheir the Manchild


briCK

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Disclaimer: I have used the word "you" as an indefinite article..so what i will say is not directed at anyone in particular......

South African Hip Hop and Hip Hop from South Africa has been long defined..authenticity is in the pudding....The definitive authentic South African hip hop album motherload....AND still continues to be defined...constant change

This is What South African Hip Hop been defined as.

--- Diverse
and /or
--- Globally Influenced
and/or
--- American English
and/or
--- South African English
and/or
--- whatever language i can speak
and/or
...[Definium Continuim..i made that up but it means continued definintion]




so the argument of weather one should rap in Venec ( i hate the misuse of the word but since that what everyone calls it i will oblige)  or not..is not an argument at all..if you are having issues deciding what "language"  to use perhaps consider the possibility that you have nothing to say and have no buisness near the MIC let alone (God Fobid) even be thinking of dropping an Album...if you really have something to say how you say it is i material as long as it is sed clearly to whom you want it to be heard by.

cats been rappin in Venec from as way back as 93.The point has never been what language..its always been about the movement and its Constantly Changing Dynamics....so what is South African...our History, Past, present, future????...it is what it is and if you dont understand that, then maybe you have no buisness telling the next person anything..


..I hate bandwogon hoppers that say they "hate bandwagon hoppers"  





[ This message was edited by: briCK on 30-06-2004 12:45 ]
Trapped In The 90ies Nigga.


TNGlive

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Quote:

30-06-2004 at 12:41, Young-n-mighty :
but im intrigued by what this 2 QUESTIONS track says.
Sounds like COOL, would like to see the lyrics, or part of them to see what issues they raise to add to this debate...

i ...



Young the lyrics to that particular track are on this site´s lyrics section. Peace.


khoi

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All this boils down to one thing Meth don’t rap in English cause he want the whole world to hear him or that he’ll limit his audience if he rapped in another lingo – he raps in English cause that’s what he speaks at home and in fact he don’t rap in English he raps in Staten Island slang same with Nas (QB), Jay-Z (Marcey, Brooklyn)

I don’t have a problem with rapping in English if you going to it then do in uniquely South African or from wherever you from. So for me to hear uThabo going “nigga this nigga that, na’min’ what’s up son, dun and all that fake New York shit then I have problem cause there is no township in SA and Africa for that matter where they speak like how we Thabo rap.

And going to a model C school is no excuse to rap in a New York accent – I graduated from model C school myself – being model C is a state of mind and we need to get off it.

Sometime I think our South African hip-hop community is plain stupid and you not proud of who we/ you are. If I ask what type of hip-hop does Snoop, Luniz, Ice Cube do like an off key choir you’ll say gangsta rap. If I ask what about Ludacris, 666 Mafia, JT Money, Cash Money Brothers you’ll say dirty south, then we get to Mos Def, Black Thought, Talib Kweli KRS One conscious hip-hop will be the answer.

When you look at those people they all sound different but you can put them in a for lack of better word different “categories” but when it comes to SA from Cape Town to Chawelo in Soweto we all sound the same and that’s like our favourite MC’s from New York.

All I’m saying is bring something different some thing unique you and so far English rappers has failed me cause I pick up New York here and there and everywhere else here is a test and prove you name a rapper and (If I have heard him) I’ll tell you who he bites…
wabulawayo Kraal we kill - only time will reveal


TNGlive

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Quote:

30-06-2004 at 14:30, khoi :
– he raps in English cause that’s what he speaks at home




Nuff said. That settles it. If that´s what you speak at home, and that´s what you rap in, no problem. Let´s move on.


khoi

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Quote:

30-06-2004 at 14:36, TNG :
Quote:

30-06-2004 at 14:30, khoi :
– he raps in English cause that’s what he speaks at home




Nuff said. That settles it. If that´s what you speak at home, and that´s what you rap in, no problem. Let´s move on.




I know the truth is bitter pill to swallow but somebody gots to dish it out...
wabulawayo Kraal we kill - only time will reveal


eef_haf

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Stereotyping limits a true artist. Strictly sticking to categories like Backpack Rap, Nerd Rap, Conscious Rap, East New York Rap, African Rap, etc can actually be frustrating to the artists thrown in that box when they are capable of doing much more than that. Some people of course love to stick to these "boxes" because of it makes life easier as they dont have to be more creative, more diverse, etc. Also, these boxes make it easier for the consumer because then they can segregate a type of style from another. For example DJ Premier is from Texas, Dirty South but uses his talent to represent a New York sound, who is complaining about that?

So now there appears to be a need for a South African Hiphop Sound for Industry reasons as marketing to a non-hiphop south african crowd, for segregation when the local scene starts competing global, etc.

Does the South African Hiphop think such a new definition of sound and rules is necessary? Probably not. People have been doing this ish for mad long to suddenly have this grand enlightingment and change of heart. People have been rocking a South African flavour or even better a flavour from South Africa for a long time already. For example, look at Ismael´s musical role in POC and the references in their(POC) lyrics to their environment.

What is also true though is that mcs who are rapping in their languages have for a very long time been looked down upon by their more sophisticated peers. For some time, cats rapping in the other OFFICIAL Languages have been Under- the Underground.  
Suddenly there is an industry demand for vernac Rap songs due to the breakthrough of artists like H2O and the popularity of songs using this style, eg. MDU´s "Bab´uGoverment", Zola, Amu.
This means several things... First the artists from the under-underground, now have their deserved recognition and also their "revenge" for being looked down upon for being backwardly, tribal, simple, etc.

After the failure of American-accent player rappers and other Puff daddy clones, this development is great news for the SA Industry because now they can exploit this interest in languages by flooding the market with vernac copycats and make cash while they keep it real.
This will happen, the industry has no interest in the definition of a new South African sound unless it translates to profit! Skwatta are currently (smartly) riding the crest of this "interest"  wave by the cd buying public.

So we are selling units, building a market and finally Abomrapper(Rappers) can walk through Alexandra and Thokoza Townships without being touted and hara**ed by house music playing gangsters and mothers alike as baggyjeanwearing-confused-uncultured-american-copycats. In short hiphop is getting its respect so why aren`t we all with this development?

The 2 extremes: One side is saying we should celebrate being African, be self-sufficient, stop being zombies of the western world, be real & have our own sound. The other is saying no there is no need for this radicalism, hiphop is doing what you like, hiphop is worldwide etc.

I agree for a people locked down for as long as we have, we need to celebrate what we still have and find our own solutions for our future on our land but there is a THIN line between us celebrating who we are and the negative extremes of Nationalism, Tribalism, Racism and the fore-mentioned, Xenophobia.

Mostly I think we are on the same page. Just dont allow outsiders who have no interests in hiphop meddle with it. As for African Unity, we all know its BIGGER THAN HIPHOP. As Africans we should connect and improve at all levels but I agree meeting at a hiphop cypher is a good start.

1
ABAC - A change gon come!


blakrok

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Quote:

30-06-2004 at 14:30, khoi :
All this boils down to one thing Meth don’t rap in English cause he want the whole world to hear him or that he’ll limit his audience if he rapped in another lingo – he raps in English cause that’s what he speaks at home and in fact he don’t rap in English he raps in Staten Island slang same with Nas (QB), Jay-Z (Marcey, Brooklyn)



point taken, but our situatio iz way different to meth´s though. hell, we still gotta struggle wit xeno-fcukin-phobia issues an all of that. sa alone has 11 different languages (correct me if i´m wrong) what about tha rest of tha dark continent? yeah, yeah i feel ya on tha whole "peops who jus imitate ny slang, need to get wit tha program" tip an a way to deal wit that iz to incorporate (sp) african influences into hip-hop as we see it, but doesn´t conveyin whatever msg ya wanna in a way that will be understood by everyone count for anythang? i´m thinkin i´d prefer peops trippin over my lyricism an content rather than not pay me attention at all cuz they jus can´t understand what tha fcuk i´m sayin or how i sound sayin it. an that´s jus me... :-[