WHY ARE ALL OUR MAINSTREAM ARTISTS NOT SELLING?

[cash]

?

[K9 tha Pedigree]

Coz the SA market wana dance, and hip hop ain't makin em dance, we makin em listen, and the labels ai't puttin no cash behind us that's why my nigga

[cash]

I personally think that we got cats out there representing hiphop who are ANTI HIPHOP! thats why were not selling!

We got cats getting awards and stuff for hiphop but these niggas hate hiphop, they fear hiphop, theyre embarra**ed to BE hiphop! im talking about the likes of Wikid and Selwyn and Tuks, Hidden Force, H20, etc.

These dudes dont support hiphop but claim to be about hiphop! hiphop to them is jus rapping! look how they talk,walk,dress,do videos,who they hang with,listen to exactly what theyre rapping about, what are they promoting! definitely not the hiphop culture! theyre more about the kasi kwaito culture!

the hood aint really buyin the rapper/kwaito thing and the mainstream ma** public arent accomodated by the vernacular rappers! ie. white SA,coloured SA,black non south african SA,indian SA,foreign living in SA SA,the model C's,etc. so these guys are really only targetting the minority who dont even really buy CD's that much and dont really know about the hiphop culture in general!

I also feel that they need to be more talented right now and more creative cos everyone from soweto generally sounds like skwatta kamp! everybody from maf'town generally sounds like hhp! and all the pta  cats generally sound the same too!

what yall think?

[Dpleezy]

interesting argument.

if tuks, wikkid & H2O are 'anti-Hip Hop', what is 'real' hip hop?

[TATEguru v.2K9]

the hood aint really buyin the rapper/kwaito thing and the mainstream ma** public arent accomodated by the vernacular rappers! ie. white SA,coloured SA,black non south african SA,indian SA,foreign living in SA SA,the model C's,etc. so these guys are really only targetting the minority who dont even really buy CD's that much and dont really know about the hiphop culture in general!

What in your opinion defines "hip hop culture in general"?

Who is this "Mainstream Ma** Public" you speak of?
Last I checked the demographic goups you quoted constituted a minority in this predominantly black South African country.

I beg to differ with your arguement & in fact I have often (on this here site) argued the exact opposite that SA hip hop is actually too targeted to the middle-cla** minority (some of which is made up of those demo-groups you quoted).
Is it not a fact that HHP; Tuks; Prokid etc sell more because they cater to a broader fanbase ie the black vernacular speaking ma**es.

[cash]

Real hiphop is the hiphop that makes you go out to the store and buy the record because its FIRE! it speaks to the ma**es! it gets you going bananas because of the lyrics, flows, the attitude!

the artist has to reflect hiphop in his swagger, his energy, his talk. u gotta wana be that nigga! his achievements, his clothes, his lifestyle! thats REAL HIPHOP(im not talking about what you rap about or if youre underground or commercial or what language u spit in,u dig!)im talking about the culture! who wants to BE h20 or wikid? if you do find those peeps,tell them to aim higher! thats REAL HIPHOP,AIMING AT THE STARS AND NOT LETTING ANYTHING STOP YOU, AND LETTING THE WORLD KNOW THAT UR GETTING IT!!!!

thats why we all wana BE jay! we all wanted to BE tupac, biggie, ll cool j, ice-t , snoop, talib kweli, missy, dizzy rascal,50 cent! cos theyre getting it and the world can see it!

the mentioned SA cats dont have that appeal!
they want to be LOCAL! i mean this referring to their mind state! they dont see a kid outside of SA wanting to be them. they dont see a kid in japan or the US even bumping their shit and wanting to BE them! they dont even see themselves in hummers and video games and having financial and musical freedom! thats ANTI HIPHOP!

All the cats i mentioned are great amba**adors of rap(they rap!) but they really dont seem like they even dig hip hop- as a culture! the b-boyin(balck eyed peas-real hiphop), battlin(papoose-real hiphop), freestylin(slum village-real hiphop), hiphop clothing(pdiddy,jigga-real hiphop), ebonics(e-40,snoop-real hiphop), flossin'(fabolous-real hiphop), aspiring to be global(jay-z,2pac-real hiphop),gettin yo money right(Biggie-real hiphop), speaking your mind(deadprez,public enemy-real hiphop), going against the grain(missy elliot-real hiphop)! all that is missing here with our artists! all we got is cats tryin to sound like they kwaito and scared to say nigga! in their rhymes,scared to wear rocawear cos its too baggy or hiphoppy for their kasi image(its american) so they wear allstars(which is also american by the way) but at least the kwaito guys wear it so its COOL! thats ANTI HIPHOP!

u feel me!

[cash]

Is it not a fact that HHP; Tuks; Prokid etc sell more because they cater to a broader fanbase ie the black vernacular speaking ma**es.[/quote]


Back in the days of WeekendSpecial "Brenda Fa**ie" etc. these songs were in english and were all over local and international charts!
That is the Ma** PUBLIC!!! you say theyre selling more but wont say MORE THAN WHO? tumi and proverb are selling just as much as these cats! if not more!

and if you refer to the actual sales then u'll find that these black vernacular ma**es you speak of are just about 20 000 people MAX! (out of millions of people who definitely speak or understand english) - i personally speak xhosa and understand zulu! thats as far as it goes,but when i get together with other people who dont speak xhosa or zulu, we definitely communicate in english! so out of the black vernacular speaking there is still a loss of the message- im lost when tuks spits in his mother tongue!

i dont know, but according to the sales figures ive heard of ,none of these guys are selling much greater that 20 000 units, it could even be less.whereas they could be targetting millions of people. but its not just about language, its the way they present their image-these guys look more like brown dash than damon dash! bad example, but  u must get my point at least to an extent.


u dig!

[TATEguru v.2K9]

I am in full agreement that the spirit of upward mobility (aiming higher) should be embodied in hip hop culture. That is what the spirit of hip hop is about.
I however do not agree that dressing american will necessarily make you any more hip hop than the next guy in magents/ Loxion Kultcha/ Stoned Cherry.

Is there something necessarily wrong with looking like Brown Dash? Would you rather South African artists look like the aforementioned Jay-Z/ Puffy? Would that be truely representative of South African culture?

I personally relate to English rap more than Vernac rap as I do not speak any of the local languages here but I do recognize the importance of maintaining & more importantly representing culture thru hip hop.

I think a distinction need to be drawn between Afro-American Urban culture & Hip Hop Culture. Sure many elements of Black American culture inform hip hop culture but that is certainly not the be all & end all of it.
You can be just as (if not more) hip hop representing Rural South African culture!

As for record Sales I have said this before, we can sit here & argue about who sells more until Detox drops but until there is a credible independant body that compiles sales numbers its just understandably biased artist hearsay.

Thoughts?

[Dpleezy]

I hear what you're saying,,,

A lot of it is down to personality (which has been covered on another thread on AG). A lot of SA Hip Hop cats just aren't cut out to be stars - they don't have that x-factor thing.

Language - this is a tricky one. Although English is maybe more widely spoken than other languages, what you gain with accessibility, you lose through lack of expressivity - english isn't always the best way to articulate many concepts, ideas and cultural idioms pertinent to life in africa. When Sketch translates one of his Xhosa verses to me it is very clear that it would lose so much if the same thing was said in English.

Language and culture go hand in hand. By attempting to appeal to the ma**es you risk losing what keeps you close to your people.

Having said all that,,, I really like 'I'm not a thug' by Maradona from 3WR because it's accessible to me (English speaker) yet reps Kasi life to the fullest. This is to do with content and delivery, but also the fact that he doesn't sound American.

I guess what worries me about your argument is that it sounds like you want all our MCs to be Jay-Z clones.

[cash]

i respect that!

i definitely understand where you are getting at with the clothing( im not saying that there's anything wrong with brown dash), all im sayin is hiphop is not being embraced as it should by these cats, in the same way they embrace the kasi culture!

i love hiphop gear! i support rocawear! fubu! phat farm etc- because its HIP HOP. it was made by hiphop and its owned by hiphop! its a part of the hiphop in you, but theyre scared of exactly what you are saying! thats the exact criticism theyre scared of!they scared people gon think" oh he's trying to look american"!!! jay-z doesnt look american! he looks like he represents HIPHOP!

the labels u mentioned(local ones) i love and respect. they might have slight hiphop influences but are not HIPHOP brands, owned by hiphop and made by hiphop! look at playa sport,now thats hiphop! thats why i rock it!

magents,loxion kulcha and them be doin tight fit jeans and sh**,t-shirt so tight u can see the fake niggas heart beating when i walk past! thats not hiphop, thats kwaito! stoned cherry is afro-jazz,it fits with the simphiwe dana's and music of that nature, u cant put it in a hiphop discussion. i love SA clothing! but you said DRESSING AMERICAN!!! i never said anything about DRESSING AMERICAN!!!

i said DRESSING HIPHOP!!! theres a huge difference!!!
its just that you and others think that HIPHOP GEAR makes u look american, whereas i think it makes u look HIPHOP! playa sport makes me look HIPHOP! Sean John makes me look HIPHOP! Magents makes me look like Levi's or Calvin Klein, now that makes me look American!

you mention the importance of repersenting culture through hiphop but you fail to understand that there is also an importance to represent the hiphop culture!

i dig kwaito cos it embodies my South African Culture, but you cant say that we must make hiphop become kwaito cos of our culture! thats what ur implying! thats what the industry is preaching!

yes! i want my local cats to look like jay/puffy, those are stars and successful men in hiphop(forget that theyre american,im talking about hiphop,not where theyre from),YES! i want prokid to look like a star and a successful man in hiphop!

if i played golf id wana be tiger woods(walk like him,play like him,dress like him,live like him,then be better!)! not because he's american, but because he's a damn good golfer and businessman and person! so yes, i wana see prokid rockin his own hiphop label,flossin,pushin fly whips, lookin like he's the SA jay-z! its got nothing to do with jay being american!

instead you are perpetuating the Anti Hip Hop Views, what you are trying to do is be Anti American,thats fine,just separate hiphop from your crusade cos ur killing hiphop in the name of patriotism towards SA versus America! im against fake cats trying to be American Too! but i support anything hip hop because I AM HIPHOP! and im the TRUTH!

[cash]

we all went to school and learned english and learned to express ourselves better in english. nelson mandela generally expresses himself in english nad has never lost his message OR his people!

Regarding the Jay-z clone comment! im only saying, all reggae artists aspire to being the next bob marley. usher and them aspire to be the next michael jackson. every baller out there aspires to be the next jordan! who do our artists aspire to be?

im not saying be a fake jay -z! im saying that if you wana be a successful businessman, read about sir richard branson or donald trump and do as they do! its not about trying to become them, its about learning and mastering them so that you can be better in what u do!

[A pimp named Sarkozy]

PREACH NIGGA! :lol:  :lol:

Seriosly,good discussion.This is a 5 star thread.

[TATEguru v.2K9]

I admire your spirit man.

i respect that!

i definitely understand where you are getting at with the clothing( im not saying that there's anything wrong with brown dash), all im sayin is hiphop is not being embraced as it should by these cats, in the same way they embrace the kasi culture!

I love hiphop gear! i support rocawear! fubu! phat farm etc- because its HIP HOP. it was made by hiphop and its owned by hiphop! its a part of the hiphop in you, but theyre scared of exactly what you are saying! thats the exact criticism theyre scared of!they scared people gon think" oh he's trying to look american"!!! jay-z doesnt look american! he looks like he represents HIPHOP!

Are you saying Kasi kulture cannot be Hip Hop?

You are implying that certain styling (baggy clothes/ Fitted hats/ chains etc?) defines what is considered "Hip Hop Clothing". Is this necessarily true?
Are you not confusing hip hop clothing for "African American Clothing"?
The Americans dress that way because that is who THEY are. Is that who WE are?

I am not on an anti-hip hop crusade my man I just disagree with your concept of what defines hip hop.
Its more of a cultural movement than a way of dressing. Thats what the mainstream meadia has perpetuated it to be when hip hop is "more than just the baggy jeans".

[morph]

interesting argument.

if tuks, wikkid & H2O are 'anti-Hip Hop', what is 'real' hip hop?

ehem havent we had this discussion b4?

Just a thought

[Dpleezy]

Just cause Jay-Z and Puffy are flashy type dudes doesn't make them more Hip Hop than eg. Game who stays representing the West Coast with plain Ts, Khakis and All-Stars.

Busta ain't more Hip Hop than Talib Kweli or KRS1 just cause Busta is more extravagent.

If you want to be a world-cla** golfer, you go and practice, you don't go and buy the same Nike's Tiger wears.

Striving to improve your situation in life is cool. However, a lot of rappers represent the worst excesses of capitalist greed eg. wearing conflict diamonds and not giving a f*** about the Africans who suffered for them to floss.

I am not anti-American or anti-capitalist and I love Hip Hop, but Hip Hip Hop is a movement, a consciousness, not a fashion.