Gareth Cliff's Letter

[General Ratzinger van Stilzkin]

I think the arguments he has made are nothing new and my view of them is this:

It is at best misguided to think that an uncorrupt non power-squabbling government would bring the change that Black people deserve. And at worst (and im more inclined to believe that this is the actuall case) it is a deliberate attempt to give the dog a longer rope so it can enjoy some "freedom" and ultimately hang itself.

I am of the conviction that no real solutions can be obtained for Black people if we still cherish the 94 transition and uphold the political and constitutional dispensation that stermed from it. Even if the ANC was not corrupt and power hungry as it is, at best Black people would be out of shacks and into RDP houses, landless but employed, not healthy but being treated and generally not really free because the post-94 dispensation and the ANC has promised no more. I think it is lazy then to question the failure to deliver on promises and not the promises themselves. This is my problem for example with say, fighting for a constitutional right to housing or to information (read anti - the information bill) because the same constitution from which we derive these rights from is the same one that has the property clause, a clause that protects ill gained white wealth and ensures the continuation of Black subjugation. (The "Creation of the Black" is made up of two disposessions, (1) the disposession of the African being, "the metaphysical holocaust" and (2) displacement in the case of the diaspora or Land disposession in our case, this is why Land is so important in the restoration or at least recreation of the African).

Now a counter argument could be made that our neighbours who either have very minor settler populations or have taken back land are still struggling because of corrupt governments. To this I say of course corruption is a problem but that its eradication on its own will not help us, we must go further than that as I stated above and any argument that does not show us that we need to take the fight beyond corruption fails for it does not see that there could be a better political and dispensation within which to have a non-corrupt government.

dude. mn!

as a question of interest, lets play a 94 scenario, what kind of transition would you have structured, to get to this end where we have a non-corrupt system leading to non corrupt government?

[Sosiba]

^^^ one that says no to protecting land that is all in white hands, no to paying off the apartheid debt, relations with the west at our terms or no relations at all and one tha would eventually usher in a Black socialist state.

Sadly but not suprisingly, The president has given dude man his ear for the letter, now ims sure there's plenty of Black people who've said a lot of stuff but never got this.

[the panic!]

Sadly but not suprisingly, The president has given dude man his ear for the letter, now ims sure there's plenty of Black people who've said a lot of stuff but never got this.

strategy. they're playing the same game.

[Original Syn]

dude. mn!

as a question of interest, lets play a 94 scenario, what kind of transition would you have structured, to get to this end where we have a non-corrupt system leading to non corrupt government?

^^^ one that says no to protecting land that is all in white hands, no to paying off the apartheid debt, relations with the west at our terms or no relations at all and one tha would eventually usher in a Black socialist state.

Sadly but not suprisingly, The president has given dude man his ear for the letter, now ims sure there's plenty of Black people who've said a lot of stuff but never got this.

No offence intended but I'm sure some will be taken anyway so whatever, but I think the a**umption that there exists a transition that could definitely lead to a non-corrupt system & non-corrupt government is flawed as f***.
Every possible system of regime change has been tried and none has reliably demonstrated a positive outcome.
The alternative to the relatively peaceful transition we got would've been revolution, cos we didnt get a revolution, that would have meant a complete destruction of all existing institutions & starting from scratch... that wasnt seen as a viable option by the ANC and its struggle partners cos they didnt represent an actual military threat and they knew it. It would've been a case of Palestine vs Israel. Also the struggle in exile wasnt big enough to provide all the expertise required to maintain economic viability, food security, civilian rule of law etc.
You're looking at thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands more innocent people dead, also in order to even slightly effectively challenge the very well trained and resourced SA Army at the time would've meant help from their friends the USSR and Angola, and if military personnel from another country had crossed into this country which still had sovereignty in the eyes of the international community, then expect the US at least and possibly others to jump in on the side of the Apartheid gov, thats just what we would've needed.

I'm not saying we should be happy with what we got or that what we got is great and not f***ed up, but there are lots of lovely ideals and dreams of the perfect country according to the individuals ideology but Sosiba name me one successfully functioning socialist state (regardless of its racial split) and/or one functioning prosperous state with no relationship with the international community.
I know you said west, but do you seriously think the east embodied in China are our friends and saviours?

And you cant call China on either of those points becos they had nearly half a century of grinding poverty and frightening levels of corruption until the capitalist policy shifts which have made it the rising superpower it is today, and without the world to sell to China wouldn't have shit.     

[the panic!]

great points. both sides.

agree with Syn, though.

[Waylander]

mxim

You are being stupid...

[RearrangedReality]

mxim

You are being stupid...

If u didn't jerk off dogs for fun i would actually take you seriously and possibly try to be defensive.

On the real though. hows your dog cum collection? buckets full. u could make money off of that you know. I know someone who has met a millionaire selling bull sperm.

[Waylander]

Condescending tone aside, there is a lot of truth in that letter.

just a shame that it is overshadowed by the few stupid statements.

cosig!!

Fully agree with this.. you know, ive noticed a disturbing trends amongst darkies... and that is, a white person can criticise the guv'ment, and make very valid points whilst doing it, and everything he/she says will be dismissed because it was said a white person... and the only grounds used for dismissing that criticism would be that the white criticiser is, well, white...

To me, thats stupidity, and its a weapon that our leaders are using effectively to run-away from answering to what ppl think of them...
The ANC rarely criticises its own, so its mostly left to the opposition to do that, and unfortunately for us, the opposition is mostly white.. and so the cycle begins..

If Helen Zille says something thats not worth listening to, it must not be listened to because its not worth it, nort because she, a WHITE woman, said it..

I still say, The current leadership of this country is f***ing this country up, and thats it...

Zuma and co still sing "umshini wam", and kill so and so To me, those types of songs are irrelevant nowadays, and that type of activism has become a relic.. Honestly, we need new songs.. How about some1 writes a toy-toy song which deals with our biggest enemies right now(no, not white ppl)? like a song about HIV? or Service delivery? or Poverty? or dropped education standards? or gettin rid of corruption?

Amazingly, we r supposed to be at the cutting edge, we are supposed to be progressive thinkers.. open-minded ppl.. u know, the 'brand news'.. but we r js as backwards as the rest of them, the only difference is that we speak proper english, have non-black friends, drink alcohol with fancy names and wear expensive clothes.. but we r js as backwards as the bundu-dwellers we r so ashamed to b compared to...

[Waylander]

mxim

You are being stupid...

If u didn't jerk off dogs for fun i would actually take you seriously and possibly try to be defensive.

On the real though. hows your dog cum collection? buckets full. u could make money off of that you know. I know someone who has met a millionaire selling bull sperm.

This is exactly what im saying... Hence i dont post a lot of stuff here anymore.. This place is teeming with pseudo-intellectuals who would rather say shit for a few laughs than deal with serious issues..

i remember the last time we discussed business and shit like that here.. i posted something about some of the stuff i do, and was amazed at the response i got!! i had people pm'ing me asking for advise and shit, and i was shocked kauz i thought ppl were as tuned in to business and the opportunities afforded to them as i was!!!nc nc nc

and by the way RR, on the topic of of making millions: I drive a polo, and pa**at, and im in the process of buying a BT50 clubcab.. I have jst recently secured a 3 year tender worth abt R4m(coega contractor dev programme), and i have secured a year contract from Forth hare worth about R60.000 a month to train guvmnet employees on computer skills(ICDL)..Im a systems engineer, i work for SITA as a Networks consultant, im also a web and software developer.. Oh, i have also js started an IT company and im a 50% partner kwi travel agent...

So tell me, what have you done lately..

Maybe you can hold on to that sperm-selling business idea, it might benefit u...

safe...

[Waylander]

mxim

You are being stupid...

If u didn't jerk off dogs for fun i would actually take you seriously and possibly try to be defensive.

On the real though. hows your dog cum collection? buckets full. u could make money off of that you know. I know someone who has met a millionaire selling bull sperm.

You dont need to take me seriously.. u dont need to.. im sure that wouldnt do anything for you, just like it doesnt do shit for me...

Safe...

[Alcohol Abuser]

http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/readerblog/2010/10/27/dear-gareth-cliff/

[RearrangedReality]

Condescending tone aside, there is a lot of truth in that letter.

just a shame that it is overshadowed by the few stupid statements.

cosig!!

Fully agree with this.. you know, ive noticed a disturbing trends amongst darkies... and that is, a white person can criticise the guv'ment, and make very valid points whilst doing it, and everything he/she says will be dismissed because it was said a white person... and the only grounds used for dismissing that criticism would be that the white criticiser is, well, white...

To me, thats stupidity, and its a weapon that our leaders are using effectively to run-away from answering to what ppl think of them...
The ANC rarely criticises its own, so its mostly left to the opposition to do that, and unfortunately for us, the opposition is mostly white.. and so the cycle begins..

If Helen Zille says something thats not worth listening to, it must not be listened to because its not worth it, nort because she, a WHITE woman, said it..

I still say, The current leadership of this country is f***ing this country up, and thats it...

Zuma and co still sing "umshini wam", and kill so and so To me, those types of songs are irrelevant nowadays, and that type of activism has become a relic.. Honestly, we need new songs.. How about some1 writes a toy-toy song which deals with our biggest enemies right now(no, not white ppl)? like a song about HIV? or Service delivery? or Poverty? or dropped education standards? or gettin rid of corruption?

Amazingly, we r supposed to be at the cutting edge, we are supposed to be progressive thinkers.. open-minded ppl.. u know, the 'brand news'.. but we r js as backwards as the rest of them, the only difference is that we speak proper english, have non-black friends, drink alcohol with fancy names and wear expensive clothes.. but we r js as backwards as the bundu-dwellers we r so ashamed to b compared to...

ey dawg. I didnt ask for your resume. knowing what the rest here already knows about your financial discipline i wouldnt be suprised to hear you own the building I work at in the future. big ups on your achievements.

but i tell you this, its great to know you caught feelings over me responding to you calling me stupid. have a great day buddy. 

[the panic!]

i know white people who shit on the white opposition too!

we kick back, blaze l's and do that shit together!

f*** Gareth Cliff!

[Anna Sasin]

I respect your hustle Waylander.
You seem to have a focus, what's your ultimate goal? What drives you when you wake up in the morning?

As for me, money doesn't drive me, even though my job practically safe-guards capitalism.
But, I mean, we all like to have nice things so I can meet you halfway.

I'm surprised you think the site is 'teeming with pseudo-intellectuals'. I always find the views vary to an interesting degree. Quite a few devil's advocates, afrocentrics and apologists. And a few posts to remind everyone not to take everything so seriously.

As for Gareth Cliff's letter, I did nod here and there, but nothing was new really, that's why I didn't comment before. Very few people would disagree that the government is corrupt. I was more interested in what motivated him to write it and whether it was really in the spirit of building the country. Also, I'm still sensitive to wording, perspective and tone used by white people in their criticism of black people, call it a nervous tick *shrug*

[Waylander]

Condescending tone aside, there is a lot of truth in that letter.

just a shame that it is overshadowed by the few stupid statements.

cosig!!

Fully agree with this.. you know, ive noticed a disturbing trends amongst darkies... and that is, a white person can criticise the guv'ment, and make very valid points whilst doing it, and everything he/she says will be dismissed because it was said a white person... and the only grounds used for dismissing that criticism would be that the white criticiser is, well, white...

To me, thats stupidity, and its a weapon that our leaders are using effectively to run-away from answering to what ppl think of them...
The ANC rarely criticises its own, so its mostly left to the opposition to do that, and unfortunately for us, the opposition is mostly white.. and so the cycle begins..

If Helen Zille says something thats not worth listening to, it must not be listened to because its not worth it, nort because she, a WHITE woman, said it..

I still say, The current leadership of this country is f***ing this country up, and thats it...

Zuma and co still sing "umshini wam", and kill so and so To me, those types of songs are irrelevant nowadays, and that type of activism has become a relic.. Honestly, we need new songs.. How about some1 writes a toy-toy song which deals with our biggest enemies right now(no, not white ppl)? like a song about HIV? or Service delivery? or Poverty? or dropped education standards? or gettin rid of corruption?

Amazingly, we r supposed to be at the cutting edge, we are supposed to be progressive thinkers.. open-minded ppl.. u know, the 'brand news'.. but we r js as backwards as the rest of them, the only difference is that we speak proper english, have non-black friends, drink alcohol with fancy names and wear expensive clothes.. but we r js as backwards as the bundu-dwellers we r so ashamed to b compared to...

ey dawg. I didnt ask for your resume. knowing what the rest here already knows about your financial discipline i wouldnt be suprised to hear you own the building I work at in the future. big ups on your achievements.

but i tell you this, its great to know you caught feelings over me responding to you calling me stupid. have a great day buddy. 

At least im business minded enough to try to own that building instead of wasting away in it errday.. dumb-a**..and u can go and suck on a bag of baby dicks buddy..