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Gareth Cliff's Letter

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Sosiba

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nice take Anna, ngaphaya koko, ndincamile, oh Thix' omnyama!
"Why was the worker shot? Because he protested... Why was the negro shot? Because he was there. This is the gratuitous (without cause) violence against Black people that so called pure marxist can't comprehend" Frank Wilderson.


K'niep Tang

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Quote from: Anna Sasinlink=topic=29965.msg247984#msg247984 date=1289242735
I'm so glad for all the differing opinions here.
Opens up the possibilities.

I've realised though, that black people over time will forget everything they went through and begin to be distant from it, romanticise it (begin to make flippant comparisons to apartheid O.o) and become entangled in more sophisticated ways. Racism today is hardly ever overt, its hard to pin-point and therefore hard to confront because it can be clothed in many 'indignant' ways.

But I trust my 1st instincts. I'm paranoid. I don't believe every white person is a racist (a lot aren't) but I believe there is a system of global white supremacy which seeks to preserve itself by ever-subtle means (which white people individually benefit from). A privilege many fear even owning up to. And I think people like me are needed in the midst of this discourse. There will be plenty to balance us out.

We're crazy, overly-sensitive, perpetual-victims, full of rage. Whatever. We're necessary in reminding folk when the rope gets too short and they begin to hang themselves, because we never lose context for conformity. Till then situations like this letter are shallow jabs, I don't believe Gareth is conscious of his racism as viewed from my tainted perspective. But his comments serve a larger purpose, however unintended, in maintaining a certain social order.

As you were.
What's AG without a race discussion?

Nice one Anna
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K'niep Tang

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And another response folks, this time by one of Andile colleagues at M&G. Here's an excerpt:

In last week's Body Language in the Mail & Guardian, in a piece titled "The face of white supremacy", Mngxitama a**erts that Cliff has "normalised white supremacy", a feat apparently achieved via his open letter to the government gaining sufficient traction to result in him being invited to a presidential lunch.

The key -- and only -- virtue of Mngxitama's argument is that it is completely unfalsifiable. Nothing I can say will therefore refute it, but it's nevertheless worth pointing out how easy this style of argument is, and how little value it adds to rational discourse.

Read more here: http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-11-12-white-supremacy-rant-against-gareth-cliff-sullies-rational-political-debate
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K'niep Tang

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Ayo Panic...can you break this shit down for me? It's from one of the comments at the last M&G opinion piece I posted. Shit's way too higher grade for me (either that or it's the whole Friday afternoon Itis thing), but it seems hella interesting. Please don't Colin me...

It's important when evaluating both the argument and the counter-argument to focus on the texts themselves, not on emotion or name-calling. A good way to do this is to a**ume this were an argument that "Michael Jordan’s recent disagreement with the Washington mayor is a product of tall people’s supremacy complex" and apply your own tests to the logic. To the counter-argument first – I would not necessarily agree that “These judgments are also not connected to Cliff as a person, but rather to his being a white person and this is what makes Mngxitama a racist”. There is insufficient evidence to draw this final conclusion. Rather, the key elements of the ‘post colonial literary theory’ used in Mngxitama’s argument are (1) The use of words and generalisations that cannot be specifically defined and can’t be tied down in time and space (a good French legal test of whether a definition is meaningful or not) – look carefully at the words ‘the whole reality’ in this sentence “A basic mistake is the misreading of white supremacy as the preserve of neo-Nazi lunatic elements and not part of the whole reality that naturalises white privilege at the expense of blacks.” What is the exact semantic meaning of “the whole reality”? (2) Determinism – the removal of agency. This is an ingredient common to Marxist theory (and some racist theory – Mein Kampf, or Houston Stewart Chamberlain’s Myth of the 20th Century for instance). Racism is not a conscious act by sentient, sapient beings, with agents and recipients. It is a mysterious ether, with none of the before, that all of one group or another are guilty of. There are no individual distinctions between people. No member of any group has any choices as an individual, and individual decisions are all subsumed into some mysterious “collective unconscious” – the use of the actual word “unconscious” indicates this . All of group X are one thing or another – be they Jews, whites, blacks, the proletariat, the bourgeoisie or any other collective noun one may choose. The logic of (a) Does the individual have any choices at all? and (b) Is there any empirical or scientific evidence to back up the collective uniformity theory? are not tested. Hence I would argue that the primary thesis being advanced is one of “supreme determinism” or pa**ive observation of inexorable forces beyond any active control, and this theory could be applied to any dichotomy in social science (tall vs short people, for instance). However there needs to be a more rigorous argument to support this “determinism” theory rather than stating it as a self-evident truth. That’s when the argument starts becoming interesting.
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fahfee

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Can someone summarize? Did we learn anything new from this media hyped open letter and presidential lunch?
beatz:
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check my blog peeps!

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The Angry Hand of God

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We learned that celebrities are more important than the general populace and that anytime a white person complains about something it is because he is racist, even if his complaint could also improve the lives of black people if it were to be addressed.

Tune in next month for more lessons from South Africa.




Blizzard

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Ayo Panic...can you break this shit down for me? It's from one of the comments at the last M&G opinion piece I posted. Shit's way too higher grade for me (either that or it's the whole Friday afternoon Itis thing), but it seems hella interesting. Please don't Colin me...

It's important when evaluating both the argument and the counter-argument to focus on the texts themselves, not on emotion or name-calling. A good way to do this is to a**ume this were an argument that "Michael Jordan’s recent disagreement with the Washington mayor is a product of tall people’s supremacy complex" and apply your own tests to the logic. To the counter-argument first – I would not necessarily agree that “These judgments are also not connected to Cliff as a person, but rather to his being a white person and this is what makes Mngxitama a racist”. There is insufficient evidence to draw this final conclusion. Rather, the key elements of the ‘post colonial literary theory’ used in Mngxitama’s argument are (1) The use of words and generalisations that cannot be specifically defined and can’t be tied down in time and space (a good French legal test of whether a definition is meaningful or not) – look carefully at the words ‘the whole reality’ in this sentence “A basic mistake is the misreading of white supremacy as the preserve of neo-Nazi lunatic elements and not part of the whole reality that naturalises white privilege at the expense of blacks.” What is the exact semantic meaning of “the whole reality”? (2) Determinism – the removal of agency. This is an ingredient common to Marxist theory (and some racist theory – Mein Kampf, or Houston Stewart Chamberlain’s Myth of the 20th Century for instance). Racism is not a conscious act by sentient, sapient beings, with agents and recipients. It is a mysterious ether, with none of the before, that all of one group or another are guilty of. There are no individual distinctions between people. No member of any group has any choices as an individual, and individual decisions are all subsumed into some mysterious “collective unconscious” – the use of the actual word “unconscious” indicates this . All of group X are one thing or another – be they Jews, whites, blacks, the proletariat, the bourgeoisie or any other collective noun one may choose. The logic of (a) Does the individual have any choices at all? and (b) Is there any empirical or scientific evidence to back up the collective uniformity theory? are not tested. Hence I would argue that the primary thesis being advanced is one of “supreme determinism” or pa**ive observation of inexorable forces beyond any active control, and this theory could be applied to any dichotomy in social science (tall vs short people, for instance). However there needs to be a more rigorous argument to support this “determinism” theory rather than stating it as a self-evident truth. That’s when the argument starts becoming interesting.

This is the kind of stuff that my man Solarman f***s with!!! ;) ;) ;)


RearrangedReality

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Ayo Panic...can you break this shit down for me? It's from one of the comments at the last M&G opinion piece I posted. Shit's way too higher grade for me (either that or it's the whole Friday afternoon Itis thing), but it seems hella interesting. Please don't Colin me...

It's important when evaluating both the argument and the counter-argument to focus on the texts themselves, not on emotion or name-calling. A good way to do this is to a**ume this were an argument that "Michael Jordan’s recent disagreement with the Washington mayor is a product of tall people’s supremacy complex" and apply your own tests to the logic. To the counter-argument first – I would not necessarily agree that “These judgments are also not connected to Cliff as a person, but rather to his being a white person and this is what makes Mngxitama a racist”. There is insufficient evidence to draw this final conclusion. Rather, the key elements of the ‘post colonial literary theory’ used in Mngxitama’s argument are (1) The use of words and generalisations that cannot be specifically defined and can’t be tied down in time and space (a good French legal test of whether a definition is meaningful or not) – look carefully at the words ‘the whole reality’ in this sentence “A basic mistake is the misreading of white supremacy as the preserve of neo-Nazi lunatic elements and not part of the whole reality that naturalises white privilege at the expense of blacks.” What is the exact semantic meaning of “the whole reality”? (2) Determinism – the removal of agency. This is an ingredient common to Marxist theory (and some racist theory – Mein Kampf, or Houston Stewart Chamberlain’s Myth of the 20th Century for instance). Racism is not a conscious act by sentient, sapient beings, with agents and recipients. It is a mysterious ether, with none of the before, that all of one group or another are guilty of. There are no individual distinctions between people. No member of any group has any choices as an individual, and individual decisions are all subsumed into some mysterious “collective unconscious” – the use of the actual word “unconscious” indicates this . All of group X are one thing or another – be they Jews, whites, blacks, the proletariat, the bourgeoisie or any other collective noun one may choose. The logic of (a) Does the individual have any choices at all? and (b) Is there any empirical or scientific evidence to back up the collective uniformity theory? are not tested. Hence I would argue that the primary thesis being advanced is one of “supreme determinism” or pa**ive observation of inexorable forces beyond any active control, and this theory could be applied to any dichotomy in social science (tall vs short people, for instance). However there needs to be a more rigorous argument to support this “determinism” theory rather than stating it as a self-evident truth. That’s when the argument starts becoming interesting.

hahahaha. no man this is nonsense, this person is just f***ing with you all.